Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ZoWie »

Bashing Hillary when the other side offered the nineteenth century as an alternative. I swallowed hard, held my nose, and voted for her. Other people... well they know who they are.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by carmenjonze »

Libertas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:05 pm First time EVER rights have been taken away, and board cons approve.
Well, this isn't true. Plenty of established rights have been rescinded by white-conservative legislation. I could list a whole slew of them, but I do so on like a weekly basis, so I'll refrain, here. lol

If you're referring to just the SCOTUS, the first thing that comes to mind is Korematsu v. United States, which argued that internment, incarceration, and relocation of Japanese-American citizens was unconstitutional. The SCOTUS ruled against Mr. Korematsu.

https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/323us214


Second thing that comes to mind is Buck. v. Bell, one I've talked a lot about on RFL. This is another 14th Amendment/due process case...keep in mind that it has never been overturned. That was the eugenics law that said that the state of Virginia forcibly sterilizing her was not a violation of her 14th Amendment rights. Buck v. Bell is one to watch, because FWICT, Thomas's 14th Amendment reasoning aligns with this decision. Again, it's never been overturned.

https://www.oyez.org/cases/1900-1940/274us200


Last one that comes to mind is Plessy v. Ferguson, which ruled that forcing Mr. Plessy to the n-word car did not violate 14th Amendment/due process rights.

https://www.oyez.org/cases/1850-1900/163us537


All of the above rescinded rights gained with the 14th Amendment and provided by the 5th Amendment/Bill of Rights. What they show is how selectively and unevenly these rights have been applied.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by carmenjonze »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:08 pm There is no settled law. Ask any dictator.
True, true.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by Libertas »

Thanks for the education. CJ

I just said this on FB, gonna remove it.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ZoWie »

carmenjonze wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:18 pm Well, this isn't true. Plenty of established rights have been rescinded by white-conservative legislation. I could list a whole slew of them, but I do so on like a weekly basis, so I'll refrain, here. lol

[...]

All of the above rescinded rights gained with the 14th Amendment and provided by the 5th Amendment/Bill of Rights. What they show is how selectively and unevenly these rights have been applied.
All very true. SCOTUS giveth and SCOTUS taketh away. Liberal hero FDR tried to pack the court to stop its obstructionism during the New Deal, and failed. Most of what we take for granted as 20th century gains came as an indirect result of the war and its aftermath.
Last edited by ZoWie on Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by Libertas »

Just saw this

The vote to overturn Roe was 5-4 not 6-3

Justice Roberts voted simply to uphold the Miss. ban on abortions after 15 weeks thus concurring in the result not the judgment. For whatever that is worth.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by gounion »

Libertas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:23 pmJust saw this
What is it worth? Nothing.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ZoWie »

The struggle was lost when we, all of us, let McConnell steal Obama's justice pick.

That was a long time ago.

Much has happened since, all of it bad.

Those who remain apathetic do so with the knowledge that it led to retrograde tyranny by a well-funded and vocal minority, and that it will continue to do so until more people care.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

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ZoWie wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:28 pm The struggle was lost when we, all of us, let McConnell steal Obama's justice pick.

That was a long time ago.

Much has happened since, all of it bad.

Those who remain apathetic do so with the knowledge that it led to retrograde tyranny by a well-funded and vocal minority, and that it will continue to do so until more people care.
When you say we did this, tell me what the DNC or us dems could have done? Not arguing with you, just curious.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by gounion »

Gee, Sen. Susan Collins is shocked - SHOCKED! - that Brett Kavanaugh and Neil Gorsuch lied to her! We're not, we knew they were lying all along (sorry linking is tough with this - it's all from the CNN live update blog:
GOP Sen. Susan Collins said the Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade was "inconsistent" with what Justice Neil Gorsuch and Justice Brett Kavanaugh said in their testimonies and meetings with her.

“This decision is inconsistent with what Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh said in their testimony and their meetings with me, where they both were insistent on the importance of supporting long-standing precedents that the country has relied upon," Collins said in a statement on Friday.
They were lying, and she knew they were lying.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by carmenjonze »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:22 pm All very true. SCOTUS giveth and SCOTUS taketh away. Liberal hero FDR tried to pack the court to stop its obstructionism during the New Deal, and failed. Most of what we take for granted as 20th century gains came as a result of the war and its aftermath.
The good news is that in both legislation and activism, that started much earlier than WW2. That was definitely a catalyst, especially since the country had once again just utilized a ton of nonwhite soldiers to win that war, then they came back home to Nazi POWs having more rights than they did.

Among other things.

But these fights were for the long game, starting even with the Fugitive Slave Laws of the 1850s, Henry "Box" Brown, and Dred Scott.

Plessy shifted a LOT of people into gear. Dobbs v. Jackson is already doing the same thing.

I trust our institutions and our methods, despite this setback. I really do. They work, even in the face of a system rigged by and for the most ruthless group of people in this hemisphere. Our fight is still for the long game, and by my clock, it began in earnest in like the 1700s.

Conservatives do not understand this, and they never will.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by carmenjonze »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:28 pm The struggle was lost when we, all of us, let McConnell steal Obama's justice pick.

That was a long time ago.

Much has happened since, all of it bad.

Those who remain apathetic do so with the knowledge that it led to retrograde tyranny by a well-funded and vocal minority, and that it will continue to do so until more people care.
The struggle is not lost. The struggle has been set back.

The struggle is for the long game.

Play the long game.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by gounion »

carmenjonze wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:37 pm The struggle is not lost. The struggle has been set back.

The struggle is for the long game.

Play the long game.
Depending on this election, the game may be longer than my life.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ap215 »

It’s a terrible day in America, and you can thank Kentucky’s own Mitch McConnell for it.

This morning, I set out to write a column that would give some credit to Sen. Mitch McConnell for FINALLY allowing some action to curb our insane gun violence.

But as I was typing, the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade was released, and I was reminded once again that any small, positive steps Mitch takes (under duress, I might add) pale in comparison to the hellish theocracy he has unleashed on this land.

https://www.kentucky.com/opinion/linda- ... rylink=cpy
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

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carmenjonze wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:37 pm The struggle is not lost. The struggle has been set back.

The struggle is for the long game.

Play the long game.
White folks are just getting a taste of the long game, arent we. What I struggle with is balancing anger with action and planning.

OH, just saw Thomas said contraception is next. And Gay marriage.

ps

Is "reason" site one of those far right independent sites that cant be trusted? anybody know? they are listing what happens next state by state
Last edited by Libertas on Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ZoWie »

Libertas wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:32 pm When you say we did this, tell me what the DNC or us dems could have done? Not arguing with you, just curious.
The Democratic Party and the Republican Party are both made up of human beings, with all their potential for greatness and for gullibility.

The Democratic Party leadership gave it the old college try with Hillary, but (1) there were probably better choices, and (2) too many of the people in the Democratic Party just didn't recognize the threat from a very well funded, extremely committed minority with a huge beef against the status quo and major support from the country's military enemies abroad.

Like I said, I got mad at the time. I was livid. I tied myself in knots over it and it made me sick. I'm not going to do that again. I'm just going to fight it from the inside, and far as I'm concerned there are two kinds of people. The ones with me, and the ones who are useless.

The time for anger is past. It's time to sing the songs and fight the fight. Whatever yoda said. Something about talk vs do.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by Libertas »

ZoWie wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:44 pm The Democratic Party and the Republican Party are both made up of human beings, with all their potential for greatness and for gullibility.

The Democratic Party leadership gave it the old college try with Hillary, but (1) there were probably better choices, and (2) too many of the people in the Democratic Party just didn't recognize the threat from a very well funded, extremely committed minority with a huge beef against the status quo and major support from the country's military enemies abroad.

Like I said, I got mad at the time. I was livid. I tied myself in knots over it and it made me sick. I'm not going to do that again. I'm just going to fight it from the inside, and far as I'm concerned there are two kinds of people. The ones with me, and the ones who are useless.

The time for anger is past. It's time to sing the songs and fight the fight. Whatever yoda said. Something about talk vs do.
I meant specifically with McConnell and Obama's SC pick.

And THERE IT IS darnit! Tell me please, what was wrong with Hillary?

Was she or was she not the most progressive and liberal candidate to run other than Bernie? Her record, etc.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ZoWie »

gounion wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:39 pm Depending on this election, the game may be longer than my life.
It will be. Guaranteed. You will be remembered by what you leave for the next generation when they pick up the same causes. My hope is that it'll be a lot better then our current mess.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

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https://twitter.com/davidmcswane/status ... POcjlPMe2Q


Image

Texas AG sent employees home to celebrate...

When Gay marriage is overturned they will make it a state holiday.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:39 pm Depending on this election, the game may be longer than my life.
Yes as of today, the game is definitely longer than the lives of anyone on this board. This is now a permanent condition for us.

The end of Roe is direct for me, and not even as direct as for my sisters and siblings in any states. The outlook for Obergefell, Bostock, Lawrence, also directly affects my personal rights and quality of life.

But this is why I personally am dead serious about adaption the strategies and tactics of people who came before us, like A. Philip Randolph and Ida B. Wells and César Chavez and Yuri Kochiyama and Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera...these are people who had utterly NO reason to hope for any kind of equal rights at the time. None. All allies were sh#tty allies, like MLKs white moderates. The courts and the laws were very heavily stacked against them by ruthless conservative whites.

You've been in the fight for decades and decades against these same forces, so I include you in Ida and César and Yuri, etc., as people to look to.

It's a religious reference but it's really good for times like today...I'm going to reference the Spirituals and just say keep your hand on the plow and hold on.

During the Civil Rights movement, the song was re-worded to keep your eyes on the prize, hold on.

Long game.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by Libertas »

Someone on DU just asked about "First Americans" and reproductive healthcare rights.

How does it work on their land I wonder.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ZoWie »

What was wrong with Hillary was that she couldn't beat drumpf.

Nothing to do with ideology or committment, just a matter of style. In movie school you learn something about how to inspire and fire up an audience. Hillary inspired mostly apathy. She didn't have the fire in the belly. Nothing to do with gender, because hell hath no fury like an inspired woman. Hillary was no Joan of Arc. The Tour de France doesn't pass her statue four times every year.

Given the tenor of the times, a Joan of Arc would have been preferable. Formez le batallions! Marchon! Marchon!

Also a lot of Democratic complacency. They did not understand the enemies foreign and domestic that had arrayed against them until it was too late to deal with their effect on the election.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by gounion »

carmenjonze wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:52 pm Yes as of today, the game is definitely longer than the lives of anyone on this board. This is now a permanent condition for us.

The end of Roe is direct for me, and not even as direct as for my sisters and siblings in any states. The outlook for Obergefell, Bostock, Lawrence, also directly affects my personal rights and quality of life.

But this is why I personally am dead serious about adaption the strategies and tactics of people who came before us, like A. Philip Randolph and Ida B. Wells and César Chavez and Yuri Kochiyama and Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera...these are people who had utterly NO reason to hope for any kind of equal rights at the time. None. All allies were sh#tty allies, like MLKs white moderates. The courts and the laws were very heavily stacked against them by ruthless conservative whites.

You've been in the fight for decades and decades against these same forces, so I include you in Ida and César and Yuri, etc., as people to look to.

It's a religious reference but it's really good for times like today...I'm going to reference the Spirituals and just say keep your hand on the plow and hold on.

During the Civil Rights movement, the song was re-worded to keep your eyes on the prize, hold on.

Long game.
Very well said, Carmen. Yes, I would also add that the labor movement took decades to simply get a 40-hour workweek, and the labor movement is under attack as is everyone else.

My worry is that they aren't just wanting to reset our government, but to burn it all down. The dissenting judges pointed out this destroys the legitimacy of the Court - but it seems to me that the right doesn't care. They want to do away with a democratic, Constitutional country, where elections matter and everyone accepts the results. They want an authoritarian government where the only rule of law is what the Dear Leaders says.

If they win control of the House and Senate this year, they've already said they're going to impeach Biden and Attorney General Garland. Reasons? Oh, they'll come up with them later. They'll make sure they have control of the ballot box in 2024, and then it won't matter after that.

That's their plan - to finish what Trump started.
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Re: Roe down, Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell next on chopping block

Post by ZoWie »

carmenjonze wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:52 pm But this is why I personally am dead serious about adaption the strategies and tactics of people who came before us, like A. Philip Randolph and Ida B. Wells and César Chavez and Yuri Kochiyama and Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera...these are people who had utterly NO reason to hope for any kind of equal rights at the time. None. All allies were sh#tty allies, like MLKs white moderates. The courts and the laws were very heavily stacked against them by ruthless conservative whites.
That's a good list. I'd add Mahatma Ghandi, since he inspired a couple of these people. His writings are very strong on the need for inner strength and eyes on the long view.

That's why I don't pretend to be a leader. I'm a thinker. My major lesson from all this is not to get mad, just to keep plugging. It's about the future. The present is already lost, but fortunately it's also over. By the time we see anything, it's already happened.

The major takeaway from the disasters of the 21st Century is that you keep plugging and trying to inspire people to carry on the fight.
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