Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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Libertas
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:19 am Somebody should have set the timer. It was inevitable.
I mean for fucks sake obviously there is a mental health factor to anyone who would support trump or fascist and violent ideologies that are the only way someone like him can stay in power.

It would be like analyzing Hitler and saying “no he just needs a good psychiatrist.”

If you support Maga or if you coddle Maga you have a mental health issue AND you’re a no good fucking fascist scumbag.

Asking the professor, does the word “scumbag“ fall into the category of demeaning human life and that I shouldn’t use?
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by carmenjonze »

Libertas wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:26 am I mean for fucks sake obviously there is a mental health factor to anyone who would support trump or fascist and violent ideologies that are the only way someone like him can stay in power.

It would be like analyzing Hitler and saying “no he just needs a good psychiatrist.”

If you support Maga or if you coddle Maga you have a mental health issue AND you’re a no good fucking fascist scumbag.
I don't think so at all. They don't vote that way and live that way because of "mental health," they vote that way and live that way because they choose to.

We know this because plenty of people with actual mental health issues choose to act better than that.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ProfX »

Science. Causality.

Though it often seems like a very crazy country, the U.S. does not have a higher per capita rate of mental illness than comparable developed nations.

Yet it DOES have a higher rate of mass shootings and overall gun violence.

Therefore, "mental illness" is a canard.

THAT SAID, there ARE very RARE forms of mental illness that lead to violent behavior, and yes, I think that should appear on a background check for a firearm. But not many of the other kinds of common conditions. A history of neurosis? Please.

In fact, mentally ill people are far more likely to use firearms for SUICIDE, and/or be VICTIMS of homicide.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:38 am I don't think so at all. They don't vote that way and live that way because of "mental health," they vote that way and live that way because they choose to.

We know this because plenty of people with actual mental health issues choose to act better than that.
True, I guess my comments give decent people with mental health problems a bad name so you’re right and I’m wrong about this.

I see the professor is making the same point you are, I stand corrected. They have no excuse at all as you say they choose to do this.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by carmenjonze »

These aren't mental health issues. These are organized, networked white nationalist issues.

https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/1476165440510443520 - thread with screenshots

It's Going Down
@IGD_News

Lyndon McLeod, 47, shot + killed 5 people + wounded 2 on Monday in #Denver. Police are stating that McLeod "targeted his victims based on previous personal + business dealings." McLeod's social media shows interactions with Richard Spencer, Andy Ngo, Cernovich + far-Right groups.

McLead, under the pen-name Roman McClay, built up a cult-following after publishing the book "Sanction," which blended scenes of murder and sexual assault with Alt-Right and neo-reactionary politics, much akin to the works of figures like Jack Donovan.

Here is one review of the book. "An angry alt-right wolf wrapped in science fiction wool."

McLeod stated he was a "huge fan" of Jack Donovan. Donovan is a fascist "male-tribalist" that has written for and spoken at the white nationalist conference, American Renaissance, in the past.

Donovan seems to have also been impressed by McLeod, hosting him on his podcast and promoting his work. McLeod stated that this helped increase his exposure.

McLeod also promoted the book Bronze Age Mindset, by Bronze Age Pervert (BAP), which @politico described as an "Alt-Right manifesto." [LINK: The alt-right manifesto that has Trumpworld talking]

As the George Floyd rebellion kicked off, McLeod used it as an opportunity to plug his book, while also referencing this quote from Trump that encouraged police brutality and State repression.

McLeod was an epic "reply guy," occupying the comment section of everyone from Richard Spencer to Glenn Beck.

Here he is in the replies of Andy Ngo; in one, seemingly encouraging violence against 'ANTIFA,' which McLeod made numerous posts about.

McLeod also seems to have been a huge fan of Alt-Lite trolls, Mike Cernovich and Jack Posobiec.

As reported by @COSAntiFascists, it also seems that Cernovich followed McLeod on Twitter as well.

It also appears that McLeod was a member of Jack Murphy's group, "Liminal Order." Murphy known for his collaboration with Tim Pool.

Antifascists may remember Murphy as the loser who was fired from his charter school job for advocating sexual assault against "feminists."

In 2017, Murphy rallied alongside white nationalists and neo-Nazis including Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler. https://idavox.com/index.php/2018/02/03 ... ool-in-dc/

According to police, they believe that McLeod was "targeting specific people" in his deadly shooting spree on Monday. McLeod's book also includes scenes of the main character killing people at a tattoo shop - acts which he then carried out in real life.

McLeod also took numerous photos with Ivan Throne, a MAGA grifter and promoter of far-Right, neo-reactionary/manosphere bullshit.

Here's Ivan Throne attempting to sell a design of someone murdering an antifascist by pulling their lungs out of their body.

Currently, it looks like some on the far-Right are attempting to delete as much as they can in an attempt to hide their connections to McLeod.

There are currently several ways to donate to the survivors of Monday's attack. This is an "Emergency & ongoing community support for the vibrant & amazing child of Alicia Cardenas."

"This fundraiser is to provide care for any unmet needs of the Gunn & Maldonado families."

Also worth checking out posts from @COSAntiFascists and this thread from @chadloder.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status ... 0216192343

This disgusting behavior is something I would consider mental health but no, you are right you’re both right this is what they choose to do and I just don’t understand. Disgusting.

You have to watch this, the main terrorist the white guy telling the Black guy that Martin Luther King Jr. is proud of him for defying mask regulation.
Last edited by Libertas on Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ProfX »

Libertas wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:26 am Asking the professor, does the word “scumbag“ fall into the category of demeaning human life and that I shouldn’t use?
Call people whatever you want, but I want to be clear - I am absolutely opposed, for empirical reasons, in reducing ideological behavior, however violent or extreme, to "mental illness". We can describe the behavior and effects as insane, but these people, are not, per se, mentally ill.

One of the points that Hannah Arendt makes in the Banality of Evil is exactly this .. Hitler and most of the Nazi high command were not remarkably exceptional people in any way. They seemed quite "normal" to the folks around them. They often lived very normal domestic lives with families. And, they ordered the systematic execution of 12 million people, including Jews.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

ProfX wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:59 am Call people whatever you want, but I want to be clear - I am absolutely opposed, for empirical reasons, in reducing ideological behavior, however violent or extreme, to "mental illness". We can describe the behavior and effects as insane, but these people, are not, per se, mentally ill.

One of the points that Hannah Arendt makes in the Banality of Evil is exactly this .. Hitler and most of the Nazi high command were not remarkably exceptional people in any way. They seemed quite "normal" to the folks around them. They often lived very normal domestic lives with families. And, they ordered the systematic execution of 12 million people, including Jews.
I will never use that phrase again in relation to this, just another example of my learning by my mistakes.

Thank you!
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ZoWie »

Don't give mental illness a bad name. We might see some abnormal psych in the behavior of a few leaders, but mostly it's more about the dark side of political tactics. Ordinary people with "normal" mental states get seduced by power, or they panic under stress, or both. They can commit all manner of atrocities. "There's a war on, you know."
Last edited by ZoWie on Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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ZoWie wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:06 pm Don't give mental illness a bad name. We might see some abnormal psych in the behavior of a few leaders, but mostly it's more about the dark side of political tactics. Ordinary people with "normal" mental states get seduced by power and can commit all manner of atrocities. "There's a war on, you know."
Understood. I guess in my simple mind I can’t understand how 70 million or more Americans can embrace fascism and hate and death without being mentally ill but as you say that’s not at all what we’re talking about.

It is chosen behavior just as those who coddle them are choosing to do so.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ZoWie »

They're responding in a manner that characterizes the normal behavior of any identity group that for whatever reason comes to perceive a common threat, real or imaginary. "When I hear the word 'culture' I go for my gun." --Goebbels

This time the threat is definitely imaginary, because coming to terms with 600 years of ethnic/class domination would make this a much better country, but the response is the same.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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ZoWie wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:12 pm They're responding in a manner that characterizes the normal behavior of any identity group that for whatever reason comes to perceive a common threat, real or imaginary. "When I hear the word 'culture' I go for my gun." --Goebbels

This time the threat is definitely imaginary, because coming to terms with 600 years of ethnic/class domination would make this a much better country, but the response is the same.
I have a MAGA relative who told someone in the family it was MLK JR who freed the slaves and this person didn’t know who Hitler was.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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Anyone who never heard of Hitler is either lying, or has a worse problem than poor education. If it's that second one, I wouldn't pretend to be able to diagnose just what the problem is.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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ZoWie wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:20 pm Anyone who never heard of Hitler is either lying, or has a worse problem than poor education. If it's that second one, I wouldn't pretend to be able to diagnose just what the problem is.
Talking about someone who never paid attention in school, dropped out and because of their severe narcissism would not know lots of things we take for granted.

If learning who he was or what MLK JR did or was took any time at all, nuh uh, didnt learn it.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by sam lefthand »

ProfX wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:15 am To be clear, although I myself did use that word to describe his actions, Mr. McLeod had no formal diagnosis of any kind from any professional, so there is no way to know.

Since you keep raising this point:

Here's a statement from mental health professionals:
https://www.mhanational.org/gun-deaths- ... tal-health

Mental Illness Is Not A Predictor Of Violence Towards Others, But It Is A Predictor Of Suicide. To Say Otherwise Is Misleading And Wrongfully Points A Finger At Tens Of Millions Of People Who Have Experienced Or Are Living With Mental Health Conditions
The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent: 95-97 percent of homicidal gun violence is not carried out by individuals with a mental illness.

[snip]

Previous Violence Is The Only Evidence-Based Predictor Of Future Violence.

[snip]

When ranked with other countries of similar economic growth, the U.S. does not have a significantly higher proportion of people with mental health conditions than other industrialized countries, but does have exponentially higher rates of gun ownership and gun violence.

It is critical that the public and policymakers stop responding to gun violence and mass shootings with statements that mental health conditions are the underlying cause. The claim is false and discriminatory.

[snip][end]



Dunno. How intrusive a society we want is always an important question.

For me, I certainly would want individuals scrutinized to some degree in a background check before obtaining lethal firearms. The degree to which this is the case can be discussed. I do not want everyone facing mental health issues to be blocked from obtaining one - I really don't see a necessity for someone to be flagged for suffering from depression 5 years ago.

Nor honestly for writing a novel in which the character, named after himself, goes on a lethal shooting spree; though I'd put that in a close call category. BTW, I don't know that makes him "mentally ill" - that is not the only cause of violent ideation.
I don't think I keep raising some kind of mental health point around here, not as a policy. Perhaps it was some other person around here who has been doing that with some kind of regular frequency.

I didn't up until now see you mention firearm control either. I was talking about the degrees of mental health our nation has, or does not have, should have , or should not have, not firearm control.

There isn't anything effective about the firearm control we have in this country.

:)

Did you notice that quote? "Things just happen, what the hell." -- Didactylus

You might get a laugh if you looked that up.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by carmenjonze »

sam lefthand wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:18 pm I don't think I keep raising some kind of mental health point around here, not as a policy.
"Mental health" is a canard, and you're using it as a smokescreen to protect your own cognitive dissonance about being in league with conservative whites.

The issue is the upsurge of another generation of white supremacist misogynists willing to mass-murder. That's not a "mental health" issue. It's a domestic terrorism issue.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Libertas »

carmenjonze wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:23 pm "Mental health" is a canard, and you're using it as a smokescreen to protect your own cognitive dissonance about being in league with conservative whites.

The issue is the upsurge of another generation of white supremacist misogynists willing to mass-murder. That's not a "mental health" issue. It's a domestic terrorism issue.
Yeah, this is what makes the most sense to me, terrorism. When I was accusing rank and file repubs of being terrorists 5-10 years ago, to be completely honest I did not see trump coming thus giving them the power to carry it out.

Will never forget how angry Will (bushwa, rest in peace) got at me for saying "All republicans are by default domestic terrorists", this was close to 7 or 9 yrs ago I think on RRMB. It was shortly after I said that I decided to resign as moderator because I could see that my knowledge of them and belief was far ahead of or different than most of my friends on the board at that time. I also wanted to be freed up to BASH the cons and the Obama haters and not be accused of using my position to do it.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ProfX »

sam lefthand wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:18 pm I didn't up until now see you mention firearm control either.
... yet interestingly the name of this thread is ... ?

... BTW, can you explain what evidence you have that McLeod was mentally ill? I saw no diagnosis. Did you?

... although now I have seen - unsurprisingly - a lot of recent evidence of his links to the alt-right in this country. Which do have a documented history of domestic terrorism.
Did you notice that quote? "Things just happen, what the hell." -- Didactylus

You might get a laugh if you looked that up.
It's Terry Pratchett. I know you've said before you're a fan.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Motor City »

ProfX wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:44 am Insane Social Darwinist freak finally snaps, decides to take out what he sees as "the weak" on his own killing spree.

Surprise, film at 11.

Seems to be this story in a nutshell.

Alleged Denver, Lakewood killer wrote novels that contained scenes similar to Monday's rampage
Lyndon McLeod self-published a series of books filled with hatred and violence.
https://www.9news.com/article/news/inve ... 0cc7c078e6

DENVER — Lyndon McLeod, the man who police say shot and killed five people on Monday in Denver and Lakewood, self-published a trilogy of dystopian, misogynistic, violence-laden fantasy books two years ago, sources confirm to 9Wants to Know.

The first two books were published in 2019, and the third in 2020. The plot of the second book bears a striking and frightening resemblance to Monday’s deadly real-life attack.

Writing under the pen name Roman McClay, McLeod titled the trilogy “Sanction.” In “Sanction Book 2,” the main character, named Lyndon, bursts into a tattoo shop on Sixth Avenue heavily armed and wearing body armor.

“Within 2.3 seconds, he trained the muzzle on the girl - her head and throat - as she cowered on the bed and screamed. He shot her twice,” McLeod wrote.

And then: “If she had been quiet he might not have shot her so quickly; but women are noisy - like kids - and for that they must pay a price.”
On Monday, three of the five people McLeod allegedly killed were shot inside tattoo shops. According to Denver police, at one point during his hour-long rampage, McLeod entered a building on Sixth Avenue, chased the occupants and fired shots. No one was injured at that location.

McLeod named his publishing company Flat Black Ink. The books are available on Amazon, and there is an accompanying website with a blog and reviews.

At one point in “Sanction Book 2,” Lyndon meets Theodore Kaczynski, the infamous Unabomber, in prison.

“If there is no Unabomber there is no me,” Lyndon tells Kaczynski in the book. “We seek the same thing but from opposite ends of the extreme.”
McLeod will not get the chance to act out that disturbing scene. A Lakewood police officer shot and killed him near the Belmar shopping center, putting an end to a horrifying night of violence that was, literally and tragically, the stuff of fiction.


[snip][end]

So, I'm neither calling for censorship nor putting people under greater scrutiny ... BUT he wrote as Roman McClay, pen name, about a character named Lyndon, HIS REAL NAME, going on a killing spree at tattoo parlors.

This is exactly what he carried out in real life. He literally enacted a scene from one of his books.
False prophet

It says there is a connection between the one lady he killed and his business. She was owner of her own tattoo shop since age 19, she also was very inclusive and in the mission statement of her site claimed the shop to be queer as f@#$k and it appears she owned the building at some point that the shooters shop was in. Just speculating here but maybe violent tendencies and intolerance wasn't the best business model.

'It's a shock': Colorado police ID shooter who killed 5 people in Denver-area shooting spree
A tattoo industry connection to McLeod’s shooting rampage seems likely, with the owner of a tattoo studio operating from the site of a one-time McLeod business saying he purchased the place from Alicia Cardenas.

World Tattoo Studio owner Ian Lütz said he had never heard of McLeod before he was identified by police as the shooter. According to Colorado state business records, McLeod was the owner of Flat Black Ink, a Denver business that opened in 2005, was declared delinquent in 2017 and was listed as having a name change in 2018.

World Tattoo now operates at the same Denver address that was listed for Flat Black Ink.

“Yeah, I have no prior knowledge of really the history of the shop before my owning it. I know that Alicia owned it and it was sort of a secondary Sol Tribe," Lütz told USA TODAY. "That's about all I know about the history of it. I’ve had the shop for about four-and-a-half years now.”
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by sam lefthand »

ProfX wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:02 pm ... yet interestingly the name of this thread is ... ?

... BTW, can you explain what evidence you have that McLeod was mentally ill? I saw no diagnosis. Did you?
No, I saw none, no evidence at all, apparently you don't have any either, yet you said "Insane Social Darwinist freak finally snaps, ...", before I said anything at all.

So maybe we ought not make much of it.

;)
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ProfX »

I explained why I said it later in the thread. As a certain Ikean used to say, the word "crazy" or "insane" has a discursive meaning when used by people in general discussion. But it does not carry the weight of a professional diagnosis of mental illness. (*)

I called his actions, his writings, his belief system, insane. But no, I don't think that means he was, clinically, mentally ill.

(*) I will not get into the issue of what professional credentials he ever actually held, because he refused to clarify that issue.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by carmenjonze »

sam lefthand wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:51 pm No, I saw none, no evidence at all, apparently you don't have any either, yet you said "Insane Social Darwinist freak finally snaps, ...", before I said anything at all.

So maybe we ought not make much of it.

;)
For a guy who has rightful complaints about the state practice of labeling people "feebleminded," you seem lacking in empathy about use of the term "mental illness."

I find that interesting, though not surprising, given what I've observed about you.

The "they're crazy" card is designed to work in the service of neurotypicality. I would not recommend throwing it, unless you're really just another majoritarian-supremacist, or somebody trying to impress them.

(Pro tip: nothing you do will ever impress them.)
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Motor City »

Libertas wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:58 pm Surprised this even makes the news. Anywhere else in the world of course this is a GIGANTIC story, but here where cons daily say and do nothing about the harm they do, no big deal.

The downright fucking stupidity of thinking you need a gun to protect yourself from others who have them as a reason not to enforce the 2nd amendment and remove them all to a well-regulated militia shows just how dumb they are.

Choice one: everyone has a gun, people are dying by the thousands each day from guns as a result

Choice two: nobody has a gun, nobody dies from gun violence ever.
I think the idle inequality aside from fueling anger and resentment also instills fear in people and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and gives space for these type things to fester and grow in peoples hearts and across society. Our economic, political and justice systems are short circuiting and those are the things meant to restore and relieve us of such burdens.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ap215 »

'Horrific': 5 homicide victims discovered at Milwaukee home

MILWAUKEE (AP) — Five people were found dead in a Milwaukee home Sunday in what police are investigating as multiple homicides, according to the Milwaukee County Medical Examiner’s office.

Milwaukee Police responded about 3:45 p.m. Sunday to assist with a welfare check at the residence where four men and one woman were found dead, Milwaukee Assistant Police Chief Paul Formolo said during a Sunday evening news conference. The victims’ identities are pending.

https://www.aol.com/news/horrific-5-hom ... 24239.html
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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Rep. Cori Bush's vehicle hit by gunfire in St. Louis area

ST. LOUIS — A vehicle belonging to Congresswoman Cori Bush, D-St. Louis, was hit by gunfire early Saturday morning, according to a source close to the representative who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the matter.

According to the source, the vehicle was parked in the St. Louis area and Bush was not in the vehicle at the time and was not injured.

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local ... 6dc647956b
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