Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

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gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:42 am Show me the post where I said I didn’t want ANY gun laws. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Right here. Bolding mine.
JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:21 am and the obvious constitutional questions, is that, as you mentioned, they cannot be enforced. It has become rather fashionable lately for state and local governments to simply ignore federal laws with which they do not agree. So just as we have states that ignore drug and immigration laws and establish sanctuary states and cities, so it will be guns. Sadly that’s the precedent. Nobody gives a shit anymore about complying with federal law. Ignore the ones you don’t like.
And, of course, like always, instead of taking a stance, you'll simply say you've taken one before, with no proof whatsoever. You won't say what that stance is.

You offer no solutions at all for this unique American problem. As a nation, we should just accept all these mass killings. The NRA and GOP stance is to keep passing laws to give people the right to carry semi-automatic weapons anywhere and everywhere, and to use them any time they feel threatened in any way, even if they aren't ACTUALLY threatened.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:48 am Right here. Bolding mine.

And, of course, like always, instead of taking a stance, you'll simply say you've taken one before, with no proof whatsoever. You won't say what that stance is.

You offer no solutions at all for this unique American problem. As a nation, we should just accept all these mass killings. The NRA and GOP stance is to keep passing laws to give people the right to carry semi-automatic weapons anywhere and everywhere, and to use them any time they feel threatened in any way, even if they aren't ACTUALLY threatened.
I was responding to the laws proposed by the previous poster. That isn’t even close to what you claimed I said.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:00 am I was responding to the laws proposed by the previous poster. That isn’t even close to what you claimed I said.
And you said no laws would work, as no one would pay attention to them.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:06 am And you said no laws would work, as no one would pay attention to them.
Show me the post. I said the laws he proposed won’t pass and if passed cannot be enforced because many states and localities will simply ignore or refuse to enforce. That’s the trend among states and cities when confronted with federal law they don’t agree with.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:11 am Show me the post. I said the laws he proposed won’t pass and if passed cannot be enforced because many states and localities will simply ignore or refuse to enforce. That’s the trend among states and cities when confronted with federal law they don’t agree with.
Tell you what - you show ME the post where you championed gun laws. If you can’t, then you’re a lying sack of shit.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:17 am Tell you what - you show ME the post where you championed gun laws. If you can’t, then you’re a lying sack of shit.
The person who started this exchange with a lie is in no position to make demands. Go away and come back when you can speak honestly. Until then you are not worth the effort.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:19 am The person who started this exchange with a lie is in no position to make demands. Go away and come back when you can speak honestly. Until then you are not worth the effort.
Yeah, we knew you were lying.

Your post to Six said it all. Now you run away from what you said.
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:22 am Yeah, we knew you were lying.

Your post to Six said it all. Now you run away from what you said.
I am more than happy to discuss this with 6. I am more than happy to discuss this with Zowie or most any other honest poster who debates in good faith. You do not fall into that category. A discussion with you is a meaningless back and forth waste of time. You are simply incapable of discussing anything without resorting to lies and distortions.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:29 am I am more than happy to discuss this with 6. I am more than happy to discuss this with Zowie or most any other honest poster who debates in good faith. You do not fall into that category. A discussion with you is a meaningless back and forth waste of time. You are simply incapable of discussing anything without resorting to lies and distortions.
Well, you respond to me all the time.

And if you say you support gun laws, then it’s a reasonable question as to what laws you support. When you say you’ve already done so, then it’s up to you to either explain your position, or to link to where you already said what you support.

Otherwise, you’re just a gutless worm that refuses to take a stance.
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Drak
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Drak »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:19 am The person who started this exchange with a lie is in no position to make demands. Go away and come back when you can speak honestly. Until then you are not worth the effort.
Who the hell do you think you are?
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

- Rage Against the Machine
Glennfs
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:31 am Well, you respond to me all the time.

And if you say you support gun laws, then it’s a reasonable question as to what laws you support. When you say you’ve already done so, then it’s up to you to either explain your position, or to link to where you already said what you support.

Otherwise, you’re just a gutless worm that refuses to take a stance.
When are you going to give an honest answer to the question I asked you 7 times
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
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ZoWie
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ZoWie »

Somehow we made it through 200 years as a growing and consolidating country without having this problem. We had lots of weapons around, but we also had common sense gun regulation and a social taboo against acting out personal problems by shooting up the school, work place, dance hall, whatever. Something changed.

The "Wild West" actually had fewer of these problems than we do. Much of the current concept of US history comes from highly fictionalized wild west shows, which staged outlandish cowboys and Indians morality plays for mass consumption, and were about as much like real life as superhero movies are today.

The main difference that I see right now is the gun lobby, and after that the tendency for privileged classes to react with fear when other identity groups demand their equal rights. Both have become as American as apple pie. It rubs off.

What I love is when international bodies put out travel warnings for the United States. I've seen some real winners in the past few years.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:06 am Somehow we made it through 200 years as a growing and consolidating country without having this problem. We had lots of weapons around, but we also had common sense gun regulation and a social taboo against acting out personal problems by shooting up the school, work place, dance hall, whatever. Something changed.

The "Wild West" actually had fewer of these problems than we do. Much of the current concept of US history comes from highly fictionalized wild west shows, which staged outlandish cowboys and Indians morality plays for mass consumption, and were about as much like real life as superhero movies are today.

The main difference that I see right now is the gun lobby, and after that the tendency for privileged classes to react with fear when other identity groups demand their equal rights. Both have become as American as apple pie. It rubs off.

What I love is when international bodies put out travel warnings for the United States. I've seen some real winners in the past few years.
Is the gun lobby today what it once was? I personally don’t hear much from it anymore.

I think there are several issues that affect the problem of gun violence.

1. We have a lot of weapons in this country. We had a lot of weapons when I was growing up. I drove to school everyday with my shotgun behind the seat of my truck. Lots of folks did. We hunted. We never dreamed of using them to settle a dispute. So something has changed. I do think there are way more assault style weapons in circulation. That has changed.

2. Mental Health - There are a significant number of people with issues that go unnoticed and untreated. I am not suggesting that everyone with problems is dangerous. I am suggesting that folks who resort to violence especially mass violence are off the reservation.

3. Crime - Lately there has been a rise in violent crime in many metropolitan areas. Folks tend to buy weapons when they don’t feel safe.

4. Law Enforcement - We have fewer cops on the street and we have DA’s that turn repeat offenders back onto the streets. Again, people buy weapons when they do not feel safe.

Passing new gun legislation at a time when people don’t feel safe in their homes or on the street is a difficult task. We needs more cops and we need DA’s who are willing to lock up repeat offenders. Otherwise there is no respect for the law and people are left with no other choice than to look after their own safety.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:01 am When are you going to give an honest answer to the question I asked you 7 times
When you give the honest answer. And quit spamming the board.
gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:37 am Is the gun lobby today what it once was? I personally don’t hear much from it anymore.
Argument from ignorance. Just because you don’t hear it means nothing. The gun lobby is passing laws in state houses all over the country that are detrimental to our nation’s security.
I think there are several issues that affect the problem of gun violence.

1. We have a lot of weapons in this country. We had a lot of weapons when I was growing up. I drove to school everyday with my shotgun behind the seat of my truck. Lots of folks did. We hunted. We never dreamed of using them to settle a dispute. So something has changed. I do think there are way more assault style weapons in circulation. That has changed.

2. Mental Health - There are a significant number of people with issues that go unnoticed and untreated. I am not suggesting that everyone with problems is dangerous. I am suggesting that folks who resort to violence especially mass violence are off the reservation.

3. Crime - Lately there has been a rise in violent crime in many metropolitan areas. Folks tend to buy weapons when they don’t feel safe.

4. Law Enforcement - We have fewer cops on the street and we have DA’s that turn repeat offenders back onto the streets. Again, people buy weapons when they do not feel safe.

Passing new gun legislation at a time when people don’t feel safe in their homes or on the street is a difficult task. We needs more cops and we need DA’s who are willing to lock up repeat offenders. Otherwise there is no respect for the law and people are left with no other choice than to look after their own safety.
More cops, even those with anti-terrorism training, didn’t do the children of Uvalde any good, did it?

And when cops are just as likely to murder someone like George Floyd as prevent any crime, so how are more cops the answer?

But the bottom line is that you are saying that this is the way it is, nothing can be done.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ZoWie »

At least we agree that there were always weapons around. They got a bit deadlier, but something else had to change too for this level of carnage to persist year after year. A breakdown in social norms? Lack of respect for others? Appeals to racial mistrust in election campaigns? Too much pressure to succeed? Too many people scared by media hype? Dunno.

The nature of that something, and what to do about it, needs to be addressed in a sober and non-emotional manner.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

ZoWie wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:22 pm At least we agree that there were always weapons around. They got a bit deadlier, but something else had to change too for this level of carnage to persist year after year. A breakdown in social norms? Lack of respect for others? Appeals to racial mistrust in election campaigns? Too much pressure to succeed? Too many people scared by media hype? Dunno.

The nature of that something, and what to do about it, needs to be addressed in a sober and non-emotional manner.
I don’t disagree. We as a people have become more callous when it comes to the value of human life. I highly doubt it is any one thing but a combination of things as you said.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by bradman »

A combination of that and more. It seems we have become ......i dunno.... numb.
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gounion
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:56 pm I don’t disagree. We as a people have become more callous when it comes to the value of human life. I highly doubt it is any one thing but a combination of things as you said.
Yeah, like people not caring how many millions die of COVID, as long as the businesses keep making money. Not much value on human life, right?

And more value on guns than human lives. No matter how many school massacres we have. Just a cost of doing business, right?
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by Motor City »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:37 am Is the gun lobby today what it once was? I personally don’t hear much from it anymore.

I think there are several issues that affect the problem of gun violence.

1. We have a lot of weapons in this country. We had a lot of weapons when I was growing up. I drove to school everyday with my shotgun behind the seat of my truck. Lots of folks did. We hunted. We never dreamed of using them to settle a dispute. So something has changed. I do think there are way more assault style weapons in circulation. That has changed.

2. Mental Health - There are a significant number of people with issues that go unnoticed and untreated. I am not suggesting that everyone with problems is dangerous. I am suggesting that folks who resort to violence especially mass violence are off the reservation.

3. Crime - Lately there has been a rise in violent crime in many metropolitan areas. Folks tend to buy weapons when they don’t feel safe.

4. Law Enforcement - We have fewer cops on the street and we have DA’s that turn repeat offenders back onto the streets. Again, people buy weapons when they do not feel safe.

Passing new gun legislation at a time when people don’t feel safe in their homes or on the street is a difficult task. We needs more cops and we need DA’s who are willing to lock up repeat offenders. Otherwise there is no respect for the law and people are left with no other choice than to look after their own safety.
Crime is up because the larger issues of justice remain unattended to, ones that involve inequality, the vulnerable, and those made poor. The only thing that will bring crime down is attending to those matters not self servingly or with contempt or anger or violence but attending to them out of love, justly and with an abundance of patience.
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JoeMemphis

Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by JoeMemphis »

Motor City wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:01 am Crime is up because the larger issues of justice remain unattended to, ones that involve inequality, the vulnerable, and those made poor. The only thing that will bring crime down is attending to those matters not self servingly or with contempt or anger or violence but attending to them out of love, justly and with an abundance of patience.
We have always had inequality, vulnerable and poor in this country. Getting rid of those things is a worthy goal. However, I’m not sure that is just a government issue but also a societal/cultural issue as well. That being said, we are never going totally eliminate inequality or poverty. We can try.

Crime and the lack of respect for law and order is a governmental issue. Government officials choosing on their own which laws to enforce is not the answer. It breeds contempt for the law and once respect for law is gone it is much more difficult to get back. But we get what we vote for. So as long as the electorate tolerates officials that pick and choose what laws to enforce, we will have to live with the consequences.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:06 am We have always had inequality, vulnerable and poor in this country. Getting rid of those things is a worthy goal. However, I’m not sure that is just a government issue but also a societal/cultural issue as well. That being said, we are never going totally eliminate inequality or poverty. We can try.

Crime and the lack of respect for law and order is a governmental issue. Government officials choosing on their own which laws to enforce is not the answer. It breeds contempt for the law and once respect for law is gone it is much more difficult to get back. But we get what we vote for. So as long as the electorate tolerates officials that pick and choose what laws to enforce, we will have to live with the consequences.
When elected officials try to stage an insurrection to overthrow the government, and you vote for them the next time, shows a lack of respect. But you vote for the insurrection party anyway, don't you?
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ZoWie »

Right wing rhetoric contributes to violence in several ways, usually under the radar, until an incident like the Capitol coup d'etat attempt takes place. A lot of people buy guns because they expect the collapse of public order, or they believe the rugged individualist rhetoric that the only safe country is one where everyone assumes everyone else is ready and willing to kill them.

It's definitely a case of careful what you wish for.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ProfX »

There have been quite a few mass shootings in Europe, so it's not a solely U.S. phenomenon.

That said, it only happens with the frequency it does here. That's what makes us unique, dare I say exceptional.

So then we turn to the question of why. There is crime, disrespect for law and order, mental health problems, and all kind of other pathologies in these societies. And I do not want to ignore the question of some of it being cultural. But the rest of the problem is regulatory, and when comparing the U.S. to these other countries, you can't help but notice how easy we make it to obtain military-grade hardware for our citizenry vs. these other countries.

I know we tend to get worked up over semi-auto or so-called "assault" rifles. The Monterey shooter apparently had a MAC-10, a semi-auto pistol, and a reminder that they can wreak a lot of carnage as well.
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Re: Mass Shootings/Gun Control Reform Thread

Post by ZoWie »

The MAC-10 is kind of a mini Uzi. It's in the same class of weapons as the larger semi-automatic rifles, but without the precise sighting down a long barrel. In practice the silencer/suppressor takes the place of this barrel, making it look more like a mini version of a long gun.

In both cases the purpose is to get off as many high-velocity small-caliber rounds as possible in a minimum time, killing the most people possible. Good in a war, not so great for civilians unless you want wartime conditions in your society.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
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