Ukraine

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bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

No matter how idealistic i've never been able to fault non violence.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:55 pm No matter how idealistic i've never been able to fault non violence.
Really? So what would you have done if you were FDR when Japan hit Pearl Harbor?

What would you have done if you were Churchill when Hitler was bombing you?

Let’s be clear: Gandhi was a big hero to me, too, but the only way non-violence worked is because England had a bit of a conscience. It doesn’t work against tyrants.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:33 pm Really? So what would you have done if you were FDR when Japan hit Pearl Harbor?

What would you have done if you were Churchill when Hitler was bombing you?

Let’s be clear: Gandhi was a big hero to me, too, but the only way non-violence worked is because England had a bit of a conscience. It doesn’t work against tyrants.
Coming off the heals of the 60's peace and love movement i have started to wonder what happened to my idealism.

Maybe, just maybe, there should be more of them than there is of us.

[bold]Churchill was a class A imperialist. There wasn't one place he ever went where he didn't invite a fight. Hitler wasn't doing anything he hadn't tried. Hell, that's why he ended up in the wilderness.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:01 pm Coming off the heals of the 60's peace and love movement i have started to wonder what happened to my idealism.

Maybe, just maybe, there should be more of them than there is of us.

[bold]Churchill was a class A imperialist. There wasn't one place he ever went where he didn't invite a fight. Hitler wasn't doing anything he hadn't tried. Hell, that's why he ended up in the wilderness.
So, you’re saying that Churchill and Hitler were the same?

I don’t. Yes, England did some terrible things, but not like HItler. Sorry, I have a problem with such rank bullshit.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:05 pm So, you’re saying that Churchill and Hitler were the same?

I don’t. Yes, England did some terrible things, but not like HItler. Sorry, I have a problem with such rank bullshit.
I'm not saying that at all.

i'm just wondering what happened to the idealism of my youth and wondering how some can hang on to it when i couldn't. i just can't fault someone that hangs on to the hope i once had.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:17 pm I'm not saying that at all.

i'm just wondering what happened to the idealism of my youth and wondering how some can hang on to it when i couldn't. i just can't fault someone that hangs on to the hope i once had.
Sure sound to me like that’s what you were saying.

You probably also believed in Santa Claus at one point. When you get older, reality intrudes. Nothing wrong with learning your idealism wasn’t realistic.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:51 pm Sure sound to me like that’s what you were saying.

You probably also believed in Santa Claus at one point. When you get older, reality intrudes. Nothing wrong with learning your idealism wasn’t realistic.
So it's a comparison between santa claus and the Sermon on the Mount.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:58 pm So it's a comparison between santa claus and the Sermon on the Mount.
If you’re using the Bible, you should realize that God wasn’t ever much of a pacifist. God trucked in genocide.

Again, if someone attacks your family, do you defend them? What happens to your pacifism then?
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:01 pm If you’re using the Bible, you should realize that God wasn’t ever much of a pacifist. God trucked in genocide.

Again, if someone attacks your family, do you defend them? What happens to your pacifism then?
Now that's a good question, eh?
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:01 pm If you’re using the Bible, you should realize that God wasn’t ever much of a pacifist. God trucked in genocide.

Again, if someone attacks your family, do you defend them? What happens to your pacifism then?
[bold] Are we talking new testament or old? :|

The Trinity has always confused me.
Last edited by bradman on Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:02 pm Now that's a good question, eh?
It’s not a question to me. It’s clear. You protect your family,
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:11 pm It’s not a question to me. It’s clear. You protect your family,
It appears we are in the same boat.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:10 pm [bold] Are we talking new testament or old? :|
The Bible is bullshit. A true God wouldn’t change his mind. But Jesus engaged in violence himself, so the Sermon on the Mount was as believable as any other campaign speech.
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:13 pm It appears we are in the same boat.
We are? You keep arguing for pacifism, and against a country defending itself.

Or else you’re just trying to play both sides. A bullshit game at best.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:13 pm The Bible is bullshit. A true God wouldn’t change his mind. But Jesus engaged in violence himself, so the Sermon on the Mount was as believable as any other campaign speech.
It matters not the person, it's the message that's appealing.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:15 pm We are? You keep arguing for pacifism, and against a country defending itself.

Or else you’re just trying to play both sides. A bullshit game at best.
We puny humans have never, ever, given pacifism a try. How can one say it doesn't work?
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:15 pm It matters not the person, it's the message that's appealing.
So is a campaign speech.

Again, I’m a REALIST. Not a believer in bullshit.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:18 pm So is a campaign speech.

Again, I’m a REALIST. Not a believer in bullshit.
As am i. It's just that i'd have a difficult time calling a non violent movement bullshit.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:17 pm We puny humans have never, ever, given pacifism a try. How can one say it doesn't work?
It HAS been tried. Gandhi and MLK. It DOES work in free societies.

But it has LIMITS.

It doesn’t work with tyrants that don’t give a shit about public opinion.

Why don’t you tell us how Zelensky and the Ukraine should have threw down their arms when Putin invaded, and how that would work out for them.

Go ahead. Otherwise, don’t fucking play silly kid games, and don’t piss on my pants and tell me it’s raining.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:21 pm It HAS been tried. Gandhi and MLK. It DOES work in free societies.

But it has LIMITS.

It doesn’t work with tyrants that don’t give a shit about public opinion.

Why don’t you tell us how Zelensky and the Ukraine should have threw down their arms when Putin invaded, and how that would work out for them.

Go ahead. Otherwise, don’t fucking play silly kid games, and don’t piss on my pants and tell me it’s raining.
:| .......That's all i have left to say for now.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:26 pm :| .......That's all i have left to say for now.
Thanks. I'll put my jeans in the washer now.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:33 pm Thanks. I'll put my jeans in the washer now.
i'd suggest that there be no reason to put them in the agitation cycle. :|
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:43 pm i'd suggest that there be no reason to put them in the agitation cycle. :|
Why is it you guys keep bringing up this pacifism stuff, but don't want to actually have a real back and forth - I think because it really isn't defensible. It's just not something that can work in the real world.

We're just a flawed species. A violent one. If there is a God, then he isn't much of a designer.
JoeMemphis

Re: Ukraine

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:20 pm As am i. It's just that i'd have a difficult time calling a non violent movement bullshit.
There is nothing wrong with being a pacifist. Thankfully not everyone in the world is a hawk. There must be balance in the force.
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:40 pm There is nothing wrong with being a pacifist. Thankfully not everyone in the world is a hawk. There must be balance in the force.
Well, if it’s so great, YOU be a pacifist. It’s funny how you guys encourage those on the left to take silly positions, so you can make fun of them.
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