Ukraine

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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

Being a pacifist is all fine and dandy until it’s you and your family being raped, tortured, mutilated and blown into little bits along with your house.

Sorry, but that’s bullshit. I’m not for imperialism and invading other countries, like Bush did. I’m totally against it. But this isn’t the same. Russia is the bad guy. Russia is the invader. The pacifist attitude here would leave the people of Ukraine at the mercy of an evil empire that wants to wipe them off the map and it wouldn’t stop there.
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:40 pm There is nothing wrong with being a pacifist. Thankfully not everyone in the world is a hawk. There must be balance in the force.
Says the guy who cried when the US military left Afghanistan and probably ate popcorn during the Iraq invasion.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

This board is hardly a hotbed of pacifism. Once again, we see words that actually mean something being applied out of context.

The devil with pacifism has always been in the details. True pacifism is a way of life, involving a full rejection of violence as a means of solving disputes. It often involves an acceptance of such unpleasant facts as that you'll have to register as a conscientious objector and be essentially rejected by normal society. You'll have to serve in wartime anyway, but they'll give you all the worst jobs. Lots of emptying bedpans in infirmaries and getting beaten up by active duty troops who think you're a coward.

Or, of course, you can always go to jail. They'll find out what you're in for, and you'll be a reject there too. Nothing's worse than being a reject in prison.

The only reason most people accept that is for religious reasons. Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes have the cojones for it, and you need very large ones.

One more good reason not to have wars, along with all the obvious ones, is that then the people with real humanist convictions get to participate in society too.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

i think one could say those that follow a non violent life style are a tiny minority. A minority i don't mind crawling of my fence to defend. So, ya, here's to dead armadillo's. :|
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Libertas
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Libertas »

Uh oh, this will upset cons here who support putin over America:


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/na ... r-AA18OoQ3

NATO considering deployment of up to 300,000 troops on border with Russia

For those cons who yell back "we dont support Putin over America!" Yes, you do, by voting for ANY republican. Until the party gets a new leader and MAGA is gone.
I sigh in your general direction.
Glennfs
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Glennfs »

bradman wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:24 pm i think one could say those that follow a non violent life style are a tiny minority. A minority i don't mind crawling of my fence to defend. So, ya, here's to dead armadillo's. :|
I think if we had a republican president doing the exact same thing every liberal here would oppose it.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:33 pm I think if we had a republican president doing the exact same thing every liberal here would oppose it.
Nope. Not true. I supported the first George Bush against Saddam. He did a great job.

I didn't like what GW did, I was against it, but unlike your side, I didn't cheer for the bad guys, I didn't want our President to fail.

But you guys are Putin fans. And even Kim fans. You want Biden to fail, even if it means the USA failing.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

Glennfs wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:33 pm I think if we had a republican president doing the exact same thing every liberal here would oppose it.
No. i doubt it very much. For the most part, we fully supported the First Gulf War. The second Gulf War was bullshit and should never have happened.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
JoeMemphis

Re: Ukraine

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:43 am No. i doubt it very much. For the most part, we fully supported the First Gulf War. The second Gulf War was bullshit and should never have happened.
There are always folks who question whether the nation should go to war. That is as it should be. There is nothing wrong with it. We are a big country. I think we can handle some dissenting opinions. I have no issue with folks who are pacifist. They are citizens of this country like everyone else and entitled to their opinion.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:08 am There are always folks who question whether the nation should go to war. That is as it should be. There is nothing wrong with it. We are a big country. I think we can handle some dissenting opinions. I have no issue with folks who are pacifist. They are citizens of this country like everyone else and entitled to their opinion.
Unless, of course, they are men that dress in women's clothing. THOSE people should be in jail, right?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:08 am There are always folks who question whether the nation should go to war. That is as it should be. There is nothing wrong with it. We are a big country. I think we can handle some dissenting opinions. I have no issue with folks who are pacifist. They are citizens of this country like everyone else and entitled to their opinion.
That is, if you even dare giving an opinion nowadays.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. [Will Rogers]
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:27 am That is, if you even dare giving an opinion nowadays.
This is a message board. You are free to offer an opinion. However, it may be challenged, and you may have to defend it in debate.

So don't play the victim. That's for the conservatives to do.
JoeMemphis

Re: Ukraine

Post by JoeMemphis »

bradman wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:27 am That is, if you even dare giving an opinion nowadays.
True. If you don’t agree with some then you are no longer a citizen with a different opinion but a tool of Putin. Sounds stupid. It is stupid. Some folks can’t handle the fact that not everybody sees the world as they do.
gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:37 am True. If you don’t agree with some then you are no longer a citizen with a different opinion but a tool of Putin. Sounds stupid. It is stupid. Some folks can’t handle the fact that not everybody sees the world as they do.
Yeah, they said the same thing when the Nazi party was big in America before we entered WW2. Like this Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden.

Image

But yes, you guys are cheering AGAINST our nation when you want to throw the Ukraine to the wolves and let Putin have them. You're now the party of Nevile Chamberlain.
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:37 am True. If you don’t agree with some then you are no longer a citizen with a different opinion but a tool of Putin. Sounds stupid. It is stupid. Some folks can’t handle the fact that not everybody sees the world as they do.
Sorry but pushing pacifism here makes no logical sense. Push it on Russia, they’re the ones who invaded and they are the ones committing war crimes. A call to cease assisting Ukraine is the opposite of pacifism. These are talking points that benefit Russia.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

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bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

i've kinda changed my position on Neville. It could be that he got a bun rap.......


Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmyecSXOla8

The poll at the end of it is very interesting.
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

I’d also like to point out that the GOP members of congress pushing their bullshit anti war messaging are the same people who cried when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, and they’re the same people who want to militarize the border and invade Mexico.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

They're anti-war like the Kardashians are anti-sex. War keeps their show on the road, but they disguise it as anti-woke sticking up for that poor downtrodden white race, a situation that does not exist outside their agitprop. It worked for a while to buddy up with Putin, a KGB spook who thinks war is fun as long as someone else fights in it, but when reality kicked in, oops.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
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Libertas
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Libertas »

What is the story I heard the other day about the General who knew the bombing was coming i.e. Kabul/Abbey Gate.

Implication was nefarious Wish I could find that.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:58 am i've kinda changed my position on Neville. It could be that he got a bun rap.......


Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmyecSXOla8

The poll at the end of it is very interesting.
I'm going to watch that - I really like the Intelligence Squared debates. We have NOTHING like that in the USA.

But before I see it, here's my view - Chamberlain was playing a losing hand. England couldn't stop Germany at that time, they were too weak. And no one else would stand up with them. The USA sure as hell wouldn't have done anything. I think this is a perfect example of why we can't just ignore what's happening in the world.

But he knuckled under, and Hitler walked all over him, and this directly led to horrifying consequences. For the world, it was a horrible turn of events.

And, if Trump or DeSantis is elected, they will play the role of Chamberlain for a new generation, a century later. They would certainly be the Chamberlain for today, giving the Ukraine to Putin. With equally disastrous consequences. And millions more will die in the next war.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

I'm not going to rerun WWII. I wasn't there, didn't get the vibe, didn't see the situation on the ground, won't say either way about Chamberlain, except that yes he did try to play a bad hand with the Appeasement policy, since it was obvious to anyone that the Axis had armed for world war while the Allies hadn't yet. Thing was, the Allies were getting their butts kicked. He might or might not have bought the Allies some time to re-arm until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and put the show into Act II by bringing the US into the war.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:17 am I'm going to watch that - I really like the Intelligence Squared debates. We have NOTHING like that in the USA.

But before I see it, here's my view - Chamberlain was playing a losing hand. England couldn't stop Germany at that time, they were too weak. And no one else would stand up with them. The USA sure as hell wouldn't have done anything. I think this is a perfect example of why we can't just ignore what's happening in the world.

But he knuckled under, and Hitler walked all over him, and this directly led to horrifying consequences. For the world, it was a horrible turn of events.

And, if Trump or DeSantis is elected, they will play the role of Chamberlain for a new generation, a century later. They would certainly be the Chamberlain for today, giving the Ukraine to Putin. With equally disastrous consequences. And millions more will die in the next war.
That's the way i always looked at Neville. He buckled, he gave in. The problem for me was that his supporters had a few good points.

Britain was nowhere ready for war. About the only thing they had was their navy. Churchill screaming for war at the top of his lungs wouldn't solve one problem. They had to build a army to do it. Go in to early, like Churchill eventually did, and you get a Dunkirk or even a Dardanelles. ( Dardanelles was one of the reasons Churchill ended up in the wilderness years.) So while Neville fought Churchill and bought time from Hitler, he double and tripled defense spending on planes, tanks, weapons, armies. He knew war was coming and if i remember right admitted as such. Churchill, (the pompous ass he was) not wanting to admit it in his writings, benefited from what Neville accomplished in starting the war footing..

i dunno ...i think it's somewhere in between.
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ProfX
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ProfX »

Pacifists in Russia are being arrested.

Russia protests: more than 1,300 arrested at anti-war demonstrations
More than 500 detained in both Moscow and St Petersburg, says monitoring group, after Putin orders call-up of military reservists
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ns-ukraine

I'm in complete solidarity with them.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

ProfX wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:51 pm Pacifists in Russia are being arrested.

Russia protests: more than 1,300 arrested at anti-war demonstrations
More than 500 detained in both Moscow and St Petersburg, says monitoring group, after Putin orders call-up of military reservists
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ns-ukraine

I'm in complete solidarity with them.
And i would defend their right to do so. With force if necessary. :mrgreen:
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Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz6gKaO1hgE

War is about delusions and comes about by seduction. One guy in russia seduces the world and everyone falls in line, American factories in tune with factories and economies all over the world in tune with the war like a symphony. A symphony of destruction. Everybody's working together to kill and destroy hope and humanity. No one is going against it.
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