Ukraine

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Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/16 ... 6661245952
"And I find it laughable that those calling for arms to Ukraine, never call for arms for the people of Palestine or for the people of Yemen."
Opposing the horrible madness of war is not anti-European. Its not anti Ukrainian, its not pro Russian, its common sense.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

So you’re saying let Putin have Ukraine.
bradman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

i think he's saying violence of any kind is never the answer.

i can respect that.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:58 am i think he's saying violence of any kind is never the answer.

i can respect that.
So self-defense is never an answer?

When Russia invaded the Ukraine, they should have surrendered?

When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the Navy should not have attempted to defend itself?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:13 am So self-defense is never an answer?

When Russia invaded the Ukraine, they should have surrendered?

When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the Navy should not have attempted to defend itself?
“An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.”

“An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.”

Peace on earth was all it said........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAe4oyRkLdY

To me it's a bit idealistic, but yet, i can see some truth in the idea of non-violence. King did it. Gandhi did it. Jesus told Peter to knock it off. Put the sword down.

“Be the change that you wish to see in the world.”
It takes a special person to be so dedicated to that change.

Me, take a swing at me or my loved ones and........ya.......ya better duck. i couldn't do it. {shrug shoulders}
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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

Ghandi's version was called Sattyagraha. I probably spelled it wrong. It basically meant responding to the violent oppression by the powerful with nonviolent passive resistance based largely on spirituality. It's probably the hardest thing in the world to do, though whenever it's been widely used and the oppressed group has stuck to it through years of violent and vicious persecution, it has worked. "The system" has no power to deal with a situation where intimidation and violence fail to stop the resistance.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

bradman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:47 am “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.”

“An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.”

Peace on earth was all it said........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAe4oyRkLdY

To me it's a bit idealistic, but yet, i can see some truth in the idea of non-violence. King did it. Gandhi did it. Jesus told Peter to knock it off. Put the sword down.

“Be the change that you wish to see in the world.”
It takes a special person to be so dedicated to that change.

Me, take a swing at me or my loved ones and........ya.......ya better duck. i couldn't do it. {shrug shoulders}
Both King and Gandhi worked in a society where PR could work. Both ultimately failed, to a great degree. What Gandhi did looked great, right up until Partition.

But again, if YOU were the President of The Ukraine, how would YOU have responded to Putin’s invasion?

This isn’t about idealism - I’m with you on that - but it’s about the REAL WORLD.
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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

Well, it is true that the partition caused most of the trouble when the British left India. Ditto for French Indochina and the British Mandate in the Middle East. There is obviously an issue with the legacy of colonialism here.

The truth remains that nonviolent passive resistance can work, because the violence started when the British withdrew. The absence of a common enemy left the Hindus and Muslims to have it out on their way to the right sides of the lines in the sand. Same thing happened, essentially, with identity groups in the other places. We see a legacy of colonialism here. It's not the only underlying cause but it's a big factor.
Last edited by ZoWie on Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

ZoWie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:52 pm Well, it is true that the partition caused most of the trouble when the British left India. Ditto for French Indochina and the British Mandate in the Middle East. There is obviously an issue with the legacy of colonialism here.

The truth remains that nonviolent passive resistance can work, because the violence started when the British withdrew leaving the Hindus and Muslims to have it out on their way to the right sides of the lines in the sand. Same thing happened, essentially, with identity groups in the other places. We see a legacy of colonialism here. It's not the only underlying cause but it's a big factor.
Yes, but would non-violence work in the Ukraine?
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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

I doubt it. The Russians would bomb the shit out of the place and occupy it. Nonviolence might make it impossible for the Russians to govern afterward, but I have my doubts that it would do much to stop Putin's territorial fantasies. Russia might collapse, but it would take many years and likely cause a nuclear war first. Frankly, I don't see a solution in Ukraine that doesn't involve Putin negotiating some kind of UN brokered cease-fire with Crimea and Donbass as bargaining chips.
Last edited by ZoWie on Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

ZoWie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:56 pm I doubt it. The Russians would bomb the shit out of the place and occupy it. Nonviolence might make it impossible for the Russians to govern afterward, but I have my doubts that it would do much to stop Putin's territorial fantasies.
Yup. And I don’t think non-violence works with occupiers who don’t have a conscience. Great Britain and the United States have always been countries that wanted to see themselves as humane and moral. The success that King and Gandhi had - I’m not saying that they were complete failures - were because they shown the citizenry and the world of their hypocrisy and their inhumanity, which caused them to change.

But non-violence wouldn’t have worked with a Hitler or Putin that would just mow down anyone that tried non-violence. Putin doesn’t need Ukrainians, he would be happy to kill them all, and then have Russians occupy the empty country.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

gounion wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:49 pm Both King and Gandhi worked in a society where PR could work. Both ultimately failed, to a great degree. What Gandhi did looked great, right up until Partition.

But again, if YOU were the President of The Ukraine, how would YOU have responded to Putin’s invasion?

This isn’t about idealism - I’m with you on that - but it’s about the REAL WORLD.
i get that. And like i said, take a swing at me and you better duck. i'm weak that way. :mrgreen:

Ever since last summer i've been wanting Ukraine to have our tanks and planes. Hell, right from the git go i was all for NATO enforcing a no fly zone over parts of Ukraine. My fear now is the same fear Zelensky feels. To little to late.
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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

People don't get it that the real reason for nuclear disarmament would be to make war less unthinkable. We tried substituting a world negotiating body for war, but of course people didn't comply, not that anyone really expected them to. In fact, the UN was Truman's excuse for going to war in Korea.
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ProfX
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ProfX »

There's non-violent resistance to Putin in Russia. People protesting in the streets, sometimes refusing to serve militarily in Ukraine. I am very proud of these people. I don't know if they can stop the war, they've certainly been trying, and in my ideal world, they could.

In the meantime, I am fine with providing Ukraine with whatever defensive systems they need. Not for retaliation.
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

bradman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:06 pm

Ever since last summer i've been wanting Ukraine to have our tanks and planes. Hell, right from the git go i was all for NATO enforcing a no fly zone over parts of Ukraine. My fear now is the same fear Zelensky feels. To little to late.

The problem was testing Russia's threats about using Nukes. That fear was always real and last summer the invasion was still in the pretty early stages.

But I highly disagree that it's too little too late. And I don't think Zelensky feels it's too late. That's giving up, and the fact that allies are pouring more into Ukraine shows that they believe, as many do, that Ukraine is winning.
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ZoWie
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Re: Ukraine

Post by ZoWie »

I never said it was too late. I only noted that a war of attrition has its dangers, if Putin is truly the irrational actor that he is presumed to be. The Atomic Scientists just moved the clock to 90 seconds, closest it's ever been, though of course they've also muddied the situation somewhat by including climate in their criteria.
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

ZoWie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:26 pm I never said it was too late. I only noted that a war of attrition has its dangers, if Putin is truly the irrational actor that he is presumed to be. The Atomic Scientists just moved the clock to 90 seconds, closest it's ever been, though of course they've also muddied the situation somewhat by including climate in their criteria.
Sall good. I was referring to Bradman's comment saying it was too little too late.
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Are the same that burn crosses"

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Re: Ukraine

Post by bradman »

Drak wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:19 pm The problem was testing Russia's threats about using Nukes. That fear was always real and last summer the invasion was still in the pretty early stages.

But I highly disagree that it's too little too late. And I don't think Zelensky feels it's too late. That's giving up, and the fact that allies are pouring more into Ukraine shows that they believe, as many do, that Ukraine is winning.
Didn't really say give up. Zelensky always paints a rosy picture. i would expect nothing less from him.

But the reality is, Bakhmut has stopped Ukraine in it's tracks. It's become a static battle. Both sides are taking heavy losses. Sure, we hear about the Russian losses. What we don't really hear about is Ukrainian losses*. It's why some of our military leaders have even been suggesting Ukraine give up on Bakhmut and concentrate forces to the the south in the Kherson area. Ukraine doesn't have the manpower, or the means to take Bakhmut let alone the Donbas region.

And as much as i can't stand the thought...Ukraine may have to come to terms with losing parts of east Ukraine and Crimea.


*We also keep hearing Putin's out of ammo for how long now? What is not being heard is that our ammo supplies are also spread thin.
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Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:30 am So you’re saying let Putin have Ukraine.
Are you saying America should be given Iraq and Afghanistan?

https://twitter.com/B_Bunny_Pos/status/ ... 4902223872

I think what I dont agree with is putting faith and trust in violence and destruction. Also I don't trust in diplomats and other leaders who only trust in violence and destruction and in front of the whole world abdicate all other means that are available to them. Leaders that dont seek or speak of peace at all except to occasionally justify the violence and destruction.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:56 pm Are you saying America should be given Iraq and Afghanistan?

https://twitter.com/B_Bunny_Pos/status/ ... 4902223872

I think what I dont agree with is putting faith and trust in violence and destruction. Also I don't trust in diplomats and other leaders who only trust in violence and destruction and in front of the whole world abdicate all other means that are available to them. Leaders that dont seek or speak of peace at all except to occasionally justify the violence and destruction.
Why won't you answer my question? Should we have stood by and let Russia overrun Ukraine? Yes or no?

Interesting Op/Ed by the Ukraine Foreign Minister - How not to Negotiate with Russia

I don't trust Vlad Putin.
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

This message, brought to you by Vladimir Putin

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Are the same that burn crosses"

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Motor City
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:45 am Why won't you answer my question? Should we have stood by and let Russia overrun Ukraine? Yes or no?

Interesting Op/Ed by the Ukraine Foreign Minister - How not to Negotiate with Russia

I don't trust Vlad Putin.
Well it is a hard question because it presupposes that we have the ability to not stand by and let Russia overrun Ukraine, we do not. It also ignores that Russia and Ukraine are still warring against each other in spite of supplying them with weapons for almost a year now, they are. So how can I answer such a question without supporting an untruth?

Do we really need 20 or whatever years of bodies piling up, damage to the environment, insecurity, instability, fear hate and all the other spoils of warring or escalation and nuclear annihilation before we figure out that peace is whats best for people and the planet? Dont we know that already. If you ask war it will tell you it has to go on, it will make a million reasons, it will lie and connive and squirm and slither as it always does.
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:07 pm Well it is a hard question because it presupposes that we have the ability to not stand by and let Russia overrun Ukraine, we do not. It also ignores that Russia and Ukraine are still warring against each other in spite of supplying them with weapons for almost a year now, they are. So how can I answer such a question without supporting an untruth?

Do we really need 20 or whatever years of bodies piling up, damage to the environment, insecurity, instability, fear hate and all the other spoils of warring or escalation and nuclear annihilation before we figure out that peace is whats best for people and the planet? Dont we know that already. If you ask war it will tell you it has to go on, it will make a million reasons, it will lie and connive and squirm and slither as it always does.
I guess we could drop nukes and end it in one day. I’m not sure how the Ukraine could defeat Russia, a much bigger country with more weapons and people, in a month.

You’re not realistic. I’m just asking for you to be realistic. I don’t think you are. It sounds to me like you want and NATO to put troops in and have a full war against Russia.
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Drak
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Drak »

Not a huge fan of Rick Wilson, but he’s correct here.


Rick Wilson @TheRickWilson
Putin fears Russia's eventual defeat in his war against Ukraine and is counting on his fifth column of MAGA traitors in the United States to save him.

Pro-Putin is anti-American.

https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/statu ... 4348382208
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gounion
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Re: Ukraine

Post by gounion »

And today on “Truth Social” Trump brags again about his trust in his buddy Vlad. https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrum ... 0012262969
Remember in Helsinki when a 3rd rate reporter asked me, essentially, who I trusted more, President Putin of Russia, or our “Intelligence” lowlifes. My instinct at the time was that we had really bad people in the form of James Comey, McCabe (whose wife was being helped out by Crooked Hillary while Crooked was under investigation!), Brennan, Peter Strzok (whose wife is at the SEC) & his lover, Lisa Page. Now add McGonigal & other slime to the list. Who would you choose, Putin or these Misfits?
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