Boeing

[gounion]

Probably for the same reason Hewlett Packard and a great many businesses discontinued them. It’s a pain in the ass and a potentially huge liability. And the 401k made it easy to switch.

No, it was a bait and switch. When United Airlines “went bankrupt” to get out from under their pension, they did some bookkeeping magic to ensure that their executive pension kept going. And a note: the union negotiated them into their multi-employer plan moving forward. Hasn’t hurt United Airlines.

The companies just want more profits, and after pensions are gone and just a memory of old-timers, they’ll remove the matches too.

[Glennfs]

Fidelity is a banker. They want your money, so they put on the big sell.

Remember AIG? They did the same thing!

You do realize that your union retirement money is being invested in the same markets as 401s are being invested.

[gounion]

You do realize that your union retirement money is being invested in the same markets as 401s are being invested.

Companies can invest the pension funds however they want - unions have no control at all - they aren’t even allowed to demand bargaining on it.

Most pensions always invested in very safe investments like bonds. GM famously lots much of their pension funds by investing in dot com companies, then tried to tell the workers they had to end the pensions because they lost the money. I disagree, if they gambled it away in a casino, that’s their problem.

Our staff pension always stayed strong. I remember our at-the-time Treasurer in the early 2000’s it was because he never put a dime in anything with a “dot com” associated with it. Always in bonds or strong stocks that didn’t fluctuate.

But hey, you guys think giving workers a match and basically telling them to take it to the casino is sound investing.

I’m sure you’d love that, you think you can’t lose money gambling.

[Glennfs]

Companies can invest the pension funds however they want - unions have no control at all - they aren’t even allowed to demand bargaining on it.

Most pensions always invested in very safe investments like bonds. GM famously lots much of their pension funds by investing in dot com companies, then tried to tell the workers they had to end the pensions because they lost the money. I disagree, if they gambled it away in a casino, that’s their problem.

Our staff pension always stayed strong. I remember our at-the-time Treasurer in the early 2000’s it was because he never put a dime in anything with a “dot com” associated with it. Always in bonds or strong stocks that didn’t fluctuate.

But hey, you guys think giving workers a match and basically telling them to take it to the casino is sound investing.

I’m sure you’d love that, you think you can’t lose money gambling.

The stock market isn't a casino and at one time Sears,GM and Kodak were all blue ribbon stocks.

So mistakes can be made even with strong stocks. What does a company do if the pension funds are invested in Walmart and Microsoft if 40 years from now they don't exist?

[gounion]

The stock market isn't a casino and at one time Sears,GM and Kodak were all blue ribbon stocks.

So mistakes can be made even with strong stocks. What does a company do if the pension funds are invested in Walmart and Microsoft if 40 years from now they don't exist?

GM blew it all on dot com stocks. To me, that’s a casino. They should have been responsible with the money.

[Greengrass]

You do realize that your union retirement money is being invested in the same markets as 401s are being invested.

“ Pension funds are one of the largest sources of capital for the private equity industry.”

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/c ... invest.asp

[gounion]

“ Pension funds are one of the largest sources of capital for the private equity industry.”

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/c ... invest.asp

So, obviously you want to end all pensions.

Such is right-wing logic.

[Greengrass]

So, obviously you want to end all pensions.

Such is right-wing logic.

Just pointing out union pensions are responsible for the likes of Bain Capital.

I don’t really care on way or the other. I simply know better than to believe a pension is better than owning your own retirement.

There are a many pensioners with their pensions vastly reduced because of pension fund failure. And I’m sure more to come.

[gounion]

Just pointing out union pensions are responsible for the likes of Bain Capital.

I don’t really care on way or the other. I simply know better than to believe a pension is better than owning your own retirement.

There are a many pensioners with their pensions vastly reduced because of pension fund failure. And I’m sure more to come.

I own my pension. The check shows up every month. And no, there aren't that many.

It's all a corporate scam to try to get people to give up the idea of ever having a retirement, and blaming THEM for their plight.

And as for stealing pensions - Mitt Romney famously stole pensions. One of your heroes, I'm sure.

[Greengrass]

I own my pension. The check shows up every month. And no, there aren't that many.

It's all a corporate scam to try to get people to give up the idea of ever having a retirement, and blaming THEM for their plight.

And as for stealing pensions - Mitt Romney famously stole pensions. One of your heroes, I'm sure.

Mitt used pension money to buy those businesses. Bit of cannibalism.

Congress recently bailed out 100 failing multiparty pensions. Butch Lewis Act. It will continue into the future.

[bradman]

Just pointing out union pensions are responsible for the likes of Bain Capital.

I don’t really care on way or the other. I simply know better than to believe a pension is better than owning your own retirement.

There are a many pensioners with their pensions vastly reduced because of pension fund failure. And I’m sure more to come.

Beginning in 1989, the firm, which began as a venture capital source investing in start-up companies, adjusted its strategy to focus on leveraged buyouts and growth capital investments in more mature companies.[42] Their model was to buy existing firms with money mostly borrowed against their assets, partner with existing management to apply Bain methodology to their operations (rather than the hostile takeovers practiced in other leverage buyout scenarios), and sell them off in a few years.[24][32] Existing CEOs were offered large equity stakes in the process, owing to Bain Capital's belief in the emerging agency theory that CEOs should be bound to maximizing shareholder value rather than other goals.[25] By the end of 1990, Bain had raised $175 million of capital and financed 35 companies with combined revenues of $3.5 billion.[43]

[bold] hmmmm....Wonder what other goals that would be?

[gounion]

Mitt used pension money to buy those businesses. Bit of cannibalism.

Congress recently bailed out 100 failing multiparty pensions. Butch Lewis Act. It will continue into the future.

Love your defense of criminal corporations!

[Greengrass]

Love your defense of criminal corporations!

Not a defense. Just pointing out union pension funds, funded those “criminal corporations “

[gounion]

Not a defense. Just pointing out union pension funds, funded those “criminal corporations “

Corporations control most of the pension funds in the nation, not unions. EVEN in multi-employer plans, the companies have 50% control.

Again, just another deflection. Workers want pensions, not 401(k)s except as a supplement. We don't want your snake oil. When a corporation tells us they have OUR best interests at heart, what they REALLY mean is they don't give a fuck about us, and want to screw us to keep more money for themselves.

I mean, idiots like you will also tell us minimum wage laws are BAD for workers!

[Glennfs]

Corporations control most of the pension funds in the nation, not unions. EVEN in multi-employer plans, the companies have 50% control.

Again, just another deflection. Workers want pensions, not 401(k)s except as a supplement. We don't want your snake oil. When a corporation tells us they have OUR best interests at heart, what they REALLY mean is they don't give a fuck about us, and want to screw us to keep more money for themselves.

I mean, idiots like you will also tell us minimum wage laws are BAD for workers!

Of course they prefer pensions. I would prefer to own a caddie but can only afford a Toyota.

Have you ever considered that maybe companies can no longer afford pensions?

You claim that pensions only cost the company $5 an hour. Well 5 times 40 times 52 times 33000 is over 340 million a year.
If your numbers are correct.
At $6 per hour we would be talking over 400 million

[gounion]

Of course they prefer pensions. I would prefer to own a caddie but can only afford a Toyota.

Have you ever considered that maybe companies can no longer afford pensions?

You claim that pensions only cost the company $5 an hour. Well 5 times 40 times 52 times 33000 is over 340 million a year.
If your numbers are correct.
At $6 per hour we would be talking over 400 million

Boeing probably pays two to three thousand a month - not year, a MONTH - per employee for health care. They aren't bitching about THAT outlay driving them out of business, so a pension adds little. Plus, they just paid their LAST CEO something like $50 million just to go away. So that would be chump change to them, since they can throw $50 million away.

Funny how I never hear Joe bitch about having to pay CEOs millions to leave when they no longer are working for the company.

[Glennfs]

Boeing probably pays two to three thousand a month - not year, a MONTH - per employee for health care. They aren't bitching about THAT outlay driving them out of business, so a pension adds little. Plus, they just paid their LAST CEO something like $50 million just to go away. So that would be chump change to them, since they can throw $50 million away.

Funny how I never hear Joe bitch about having to pay CEOs millions to leave when they no longer are working for the company.

So let's add it up
35000 health care
15000 pensions
115,000 hourly pay [ new contract]
7000 ssi taxes
3000 misc
175,000 per union employee
33000 employees

5,775,000,000 in payroll just for those 33000 employees.
For a company which is losing billions a year.

Have you ever stopped to think that at some point Boeing could go out of business do to high labor and other costs. Plus the defective product brought about by mismanagement.

I can see Boeing splitting into different companies and the blue collar guys getting nothing. They would be well advised to take the 40,000 raise and be happy with it.

[gounion]

So let's add it up
35000 health care
15000 pensions
115,000 hourly pay [ new contract]
7000 ssi taxes
3000 misc
175,000 per union employee
33000 employees

5,775,000,000 in payroll just for those 33000 employees.
For a company which is losing billions a year.

Have you ever stopped to think that at some point Boeing could go out of business do to high labor and other costs. Plus the defective product brought about by mismanagement.

I can see Boeing splitting into different companies and the blue collar guys getting nothing. They would be well advised to take the 40,000 raise and be happy with it.

Funny how CEOs are never greedy.

The problems with the workers is something that Boeing asked for when they declared war on their union.

Let’s be clear: the only reason Boeing is in trouble is because of the CEOs and bosses. Not the workers.

[Glennfs]

Funny how CEOs are never greedy.

The problems with the workers is something that Boeing asked for when they declared war on their union.

Let’s be clear: the only reason Boeing is in trouble is because of the CEOs and bosses. Not the workers.

So 5.75 billion for just 33000 employees is not a problem.

[gounion]

So 5.75 billion for just 33000 employees is not a problem.

Not when they pay several thousand per employee per month just for health insurance.

If Boeing is in such bad shape, why didn't the CEO take a pay cut? Why did they pay millions to the last CEO they fired?

Funny how it's only wasted money when it's on the employees that actually create the wealth of the company.

[Glennfs]

Not when they pay several thousand per employee per month just for health insurance.

If Boeing is in such bad shape, why didn't the CEO take a pay cut? Why did they pay millions to the last CEO they fired?

Funny how it's only wasted money when it's on the employees that actually create the wealth of the company.

That number includes health insurance. As for the CEO he gets paid far less per employee than the tribute those same employees pay the union

[JoeMemphis]

Corporations control most of the pension funds in the nation, not unions. EVEN in multi-employer plans, the companies have 50% control.

Again, just another deflection. Workers want pensions, not 401(k)s except as a supplement. We don't want your snake oil. When a corporation tells us they have OUR best interests at heart, what they REALLY mean is they don't give a fuck about us, and want to screw us to keep more money for themselves.

I mean, idiots like you will also tell us minimum wage laws are BAD for workers!

If you truly believe what you say why wouldn’t you want all pensions funds controlled by the unions? Unions can invest the money as they see fit and the company is off the hook for the legacy costs should that occur. If there’s a shortfall then the union would be responsible for bridging the gap.

You wouldn’t have “corporate criminals” managing your money.

[Glennfs]

If you truly believe what you say why wouldn’t you want all pensions funds controlled by the unions? Unions can invest the money as they see fit and the company is off the hook for the legacy costs should that occur. If there’s a shortfall then the union would be responsible for bridging the gap.

You wouldn’t have “corporate criminals” managing your money.

Better yet have the union's control the 401 investments.

[gounion]

If you truly believe what you say why wouldn’t you want all pensions funds controlled by the unions? Unions can invest the money as they see fit and the company is off the hook for the legacy costs should that occur. If there’s a shortfall then the union would be responsible for bridging the gap.

You wouldn’t have “corporate criminals” managing your money.

Well, our union staff pension fund has done quite well, with only the union running it.

HAVING SAID THAT - I like both sides having a say. The problem with the company-only funds is that the companies consider it slush funds, and also, if it’s overfunded, then they stop putting money in and take the money to the casino to keep from putting money in. Then, if the market tanks, they just say “well, we need to shut the pension down now because we gambled it away”.

I call bullshit on such scenarios.

Most important thing is the fund should be well-regulated by government entities so that you CAN’T invest it in high-risk gambling.

And you probably don’t know how unions are funded, do you?

[Glennfs]

Well, our union staff pension fund has done quite well, with only the union running it.

HAVING SAID THAT - I like both sides having a say. The problem with the company-only funds is that the companies consider it slush funds, and also, if it’s overfunded, then they stop putting money in and take the money to the casino to keep from putting money in. Then, if the market tanks, they just say “well, we need to shut the pension down now because we gambled it away”.

I call bullshit on such scenarios.

Most important thing is the fund should be well-regulated by government entities so that you CAN’T invest it in high-risk gambling.

And you probably don’t know how unions are funded, do you?

The NYSE is not a casino and in all likelihood it is where your union has most of your funds invested. In fact directly or indirectly all of your funds are either invested in the market or tied to the market.