1619 Project Book

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ProfX
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:23 pm According to people on this board, it isn't being taught in k-12.
The only thing that bugs me in you repeating this is, it's fine ... but you really don't have to take my word for it.

Find a library. Get a legal encyclopedia. This avoids the "issue" with Wikipedia. Flip to "C". Look up "Critical Race Theory" and see what it says.

I just wish you would put this in a way that doesn't make it sound like me or someone else is the only way one can know what I've said to be true.

BTW, could learning stuff about U.S. racial history help you to be a better worker in a racially diverse workplace? Yes, so it's not like to me this is a subject that would be to the detriment of anyone's vocational future.
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:06 pm According to people on this board, it is a college level elective and as I have previously stated, I have no problem with that.
No, according to people who actually know what CRT is, it is not “an elective,” and it’s not “a course.”

It’s an entire field of study that has been around since the 1970s.
But I haven’t denounced CRT.
Not only have you denounced something yo-yo never read, you’ve done so using Heritage Foundation talking points.

Read 1619, yet?
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:49 pm I think I addressed that in my previous post.
Read 1619, yet?
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gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:02 pm The only thing that bugs me in you repeating this is, it's fine ... but you really don't have to take my word for it.

Find a library. Get a legal encyclopedia. This avoids the "issue" with Wikipedia. Flip to "C". Look up "Critical Race Theory" and see what it says.

I just wish you would put this in a way that doesn't make it sound like me or someone else is the only way one can know what I've said to be true.

BTW, could learning stuff about U.S. racial history help you to be a better worker in a racially diverse workplace? Yes, so it's not like to me this is a subject that would be to the detriment of anyone's vocational future.
What's funny is that Joe pulls this bullshit on everyone, but then says the only problem he was is with ME, that everyone else is fine with Joe.

It isn't true. Joe pulls this bullshit with EVERYONE. You're just a lot nicer than me when you point it out!
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:09 pm Read 1619, yet?
Somehow I doubt that Joe has read a book in the last several decades.
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:10 pm Somehow I doubt that Joe has read a book in the last several decades.
JoeMemphis hasn’t read j.s. and is talking out of his rear end like a typical loud talking conservative white man out of his element, full of empty authoritative-sounding bluster.

The minute he’s gotten off his lazy duff and even clicked on the 1619 website I’ll eat my hat.
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gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:13 pm JoeMemphis hasn’t read j.s. and is talking out of his rear end like a typical loud talking conservative white man out of his element, full of empty authoritative-sounding bluster.

The minute he’s gotten off his lazy duff and even clicked on the 1619 website I’ll eat my hat.
He'll never do it - ignorance is his stock in trade.
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ProfX
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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I also think parents should not get to dictate the curriculum of K-12.

Please note, as I'll repeat, there are lots of ways to be constructively involved. Get involved in your PTA, meet with teachers, talk with them about the curriculum. Go to school board meetings, DON'T SPRAY FOAM AND SPITTLE ALL OVER THE ROOM, offer cogent points for discussion. It's fine, it's why the public and parents are invited to school board meetings.

But here's where I draw my line. You may not want your kid learning Darwinian evolution in their public school biology class. Unfortunately, this does not mean you get to tell the science teacher not to teach it. You have alternatives. You want your kid not to learn it ... homeschool, put him in a parochial religious school, find a charter ... Saul Goodman. I just bristle at this idea that you get to force his teachers not to teach it.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:16 pm He'll never do it - ignorance is his stock in trade.
Of course he won’t, which is why trying to have a normal conversation with this type of person on this and related subjects is a waste of time.
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:19 pm I also think parents should not get to dictate the curriculum of K-12.

Please note, as I'll repeat, there are lots of ways to be constructively involved. Get involved in your PTA, meet with teachers, talk with them about the curriculum. Go to school board meetings, DON'T SPRAY FOAM AND SPITTLE ALL OVER THE ROOM, offer cogent points for discussion. It's fine, it's why the public and parents are invited to school board meetings.

But here's where I draw my line. You may not want your kid learning Darwinian evolution in their public school biology class. Unfortunately, this does not mean you get to tell the science teacher not to teach it. You have alternatives. You want your kid not to learn it ... homeschool, put him in a parochial religious school, find a charter ... Saul Goodman. I just bristle at this idea that you get to force his teachers not to teach it.
These Karen parents already do that. Like this ignoramus raising sand about a book about MLK, who doesn’t even send her brat to public school at all.

viewtopic.php?p=7102#p7102

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gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:19 pm I also think parents should not get to dictate the curriculum of K-12.

Please note, as I'll repeat, there are lots of ways to be constructively involved. Get involved in your PTA, meet with teachers, talk with them about the curriculum. Go to school board meetings, DON'T SPRAY FOAM AND SPITTLE ALL OVER THE ROOM, offer cogent points for discussion. It's fine, it's why the public and parents are invited to school board meetings.

But here's where I draw my line. You may not want your kid learning Darwinian evolution in their public school biology class. Unfortunately, this does not mean you get to tell the science teacher not to teach it. You have alternatives. You want your kid not to learn it ... homeschool, put him in a parochial religious school, find a charter ... Saul Goodman. I just bristle at this idea that you get to force his teachers not to teach it.
I love this Doonesbury cartoon - the kid says "Please stop. I'd like to get into a good college!"

Image
JoeMemphis

Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:02 pm The only thing that bugs me in you repeating this is, it's fine ... but you really don't have to take my word for it.

Find a library. Get a legal encyclopedia. This avoids the "issue" with Wikipedia. Flip to "C". Look up "Critical Race Theory" and see what it says.

I just wish you would put this in a way that doesn't make it sound like me or someone else is the only way one can know what I've said to be true.

BTW, could learning stuff about U.S. racial history help you to be a better worker in a racially diverse workplace? Yes, so it's not like to me this is a subject that would be to the detriment of anyone's vocational future.
If the argument is whether I think CRT should be taught in K-12 I have already indicated that I thought it belonged in college where you and others indicate that it is being offered as an elective. I see no reason to independently verify that it isn’t being taught in K-12. I take your word for it. Why argue the point? We appear to agree.

Your second paragraph seems to indicate that I know little to nothing about US racial history. You really have non idea. You assume.
JoeMemphis

Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:19 pm I also think parents should not get to dictate the curriculum of K-12.

Please note, as I'll repeat, there are lots of ways to be constructively involved. Get involved in your PTA, meet with teachers, talk with them about the curriculum. Go to school board meetings, DON'T SPRAY FOAM AND SPITTLE ALL OVER THE ROOM, offer cogent points for discussion. It's fine, it's why the public and parents are invited to school board meetings.

But here's where I draw my line. You may not want your kid learning Darwinian evolution in their public school biology class. Unfortunately, this does not mean you get to tell the science teacher not to teach it. You have alternatives. You want your kid not to learn it ... homeschool, put him in a parochial religious school, find a charter ... Saul Goodman. I just bristle at this idea that you get to force his teachers not to teach it.
I’m not arguing for teaching flat earth or creationism. I’m just pointing out that teachers and school boards can draw all the lines they choose. But parents and taxpayers elect the school board. Ultimately, they draw the lines. So school boards and teachers may dismiss them as ignorant. They may ignore them. They can complain to the DOJ. But they do so at their own peril. Personally, I think instead of talking down to them, they should treat them with the same respect that any professional would treat a client. But that’s just me.
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ProfX
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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I'm making no assumptions about you.

I am however noting statements you've made which seem to indicate you think the problem with 1619 Project or things like that is that you appear to think they are detrimental to students learning other more important vocational skills.

Perhaps I am not understanding what point you are trying to make. That happens.
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ProfX
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:36 pm I’m not arguing for teaching flat earth or creationism. I’m just pointing out that teachers and school boards can draw all the lines they choose. But parents and taxpayers elect the school board. Ultimately, they draw the lines. So school boards and teachers may dismiss them as ignorant. They may ignore them. They can complain to the DOJ. But they do so at their own peril. Personally, I think instead of talking down to them, they should treat them with the same respect that any professional would treat a client. But that’s just me.
So explain to me where the lines are, because again I'm not understanding you.

Which curricula should be wholly subject to parental demand? Science (biology, chemistry, physics?) Social science? History? Art? Where do we draw the line between parental input, and parental demand, like, "my kid should not be reading any books by or about MLK?" How about "I don't want them reading any books that portray the Confederacy in a negative light?" How about: "I only want my kid being taught a certain kind of art, music, painting, etc. and nothing else is acceptable!"

Doctors and patients have a client relationship. As I explained to you earlier, you could and should discuss diagnoses and treatments with your doctor, and if they prescribe something for you, you should absolutely understand fully why they have done so. All that is fine. Yes your doctor should make every effort to explain this to you, with respect for you as their patient.

At the end of the day, though, you cannot demand your doctor prescribe ivermectin, or any other drug. You have the option to find another doctor, any patient on Earth does (although it might have to be somebody in your insurance/provider network) ... I guess you can hunt day and night to find one that will. There is a power asymmetry there, no doubt about it, has to do with the very nature of professional licensure. If you're not accepting the professional has expert knowledge, why talk to a professional at all?

There's just no way around it ... if you want medicine, a doctor must prescribe it to you, and you don't get to force a doctor to prescribe something they wouldn't. Built into the system. Don't like it ... keep hunting for a doctor that will. It might be hard to find one that WILL prescribe you ivermectin and I personally of course think that's a good thing.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:36 pm I’m not arguing for teaching flat earth or creationism. I’m just pointing out that teachers and school boards can draw all the lines they choose. But parents and taxpayers elect the school board. Ultimately, they draw the lines. So school boards and teachers may dismiss them as ignorant. They may ignore them. They can complain to the DOJ. But they do so at their own peril. Personally, I think instead of talking down to them, they should treat them with the same respect that any professional would treat a client. But that’s just me.
Client? No.

This is a PUBLIC education. If you want a custom education, then you are welcome to home school, or find a private or religious school.

And no one says they talk down to them. But as the cartoon pointed out, we shouldn't have to teach your crazy religious views as fact in schools.

You can't have every parent demanding a custom curriculum for each child.

What crazy ideas.
JoeMemphis

Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:46 pm So explain to me where the lines are, because again I'm not understanding you.

Which curricula should be wholly subject to parental demand? Science (biology, chemistry, physics?) Social science? History? Art? Where do we draw the line between parental input, and parental demand, like, "my kid should not be reading any books by or about MLK?" How about "I don't want them reading any books that portray the Confederacy in a negative light?" How about: "I only want my kid being taught a certain kind of art, music, painting, etc. and nothing else is acceptable!"

Doctors and patients have a client relationship. As I explained to you earlier, you could and should discuss diagnoses and treatments with your doctor, and if they prescribe something for you, you should absolutely understand fully why they have done so. All that is fine. Yes your doctor should make every effort to explain this to you, with respect for you as their patient.

At the end of the day, though, you cannot demand your doctor prescribe ivermectin, or any other drug. You have the option to find another doctor, any patient on Earth does (although it might have to be somebody in your insurance/provider network) ... I guess you can hunt day and night to find one that will. There is a power asymmetry there, no doubt about it, has to do with the very nature of professional licensure. If you're not accepting the professional has expert knowledge, why talk to a professional at all?

There's just no way around it ... if you want medicine, a doctor must prescribe it to you, and you don't get to force a doctor to prescribe something they wouldn't. Built into the system. Don't like it ... keep hunting for a doctor that will. It might be hard to find one that WILL prescribe you ivermectin and I personally of course think that's a good thing.
We don’t follow quite the same process in education as we do in doctor client relationships. We elect school board members. And if we don’t believe the school board members are doing a good job then we elect different school board members. But the students and the parents are the clients and they thru their elected representative draw the lines. It’s up to the administrators and the teachers to work within those lines or to convince the parents that the lines need to be drawn differently. Voters thru their elected representatives ultimately draw the lines. It’s government by the consent of the governed.
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:36 pm I’m not arguing for teaching flat earth or creationism. I’m just pointing out that teachers and school boards can draw all the lines they choose. But parents and taxpayers elect the school board. Ultimately, they draw the lines. So school boards and teachers may dismiss them as ignorant. They may ignore them. They can complain to the DOJ. But they do so at their own peril. Personally, I think instead of talking down to them, they should treat them with the same respect that any professional would treat a client. But that’s just me.
Visited the 1619 website, yet
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Shine the light of truth on them.

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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:07 pm We don’t follow quite the same process in education as we do in doctor client relationships. We elect school board members. And if we don’t believe the school board members are doing a good job then we elect different school board members. But the students and the parents are the clients and they thru their elected representative draw the lines. It’s up to the administrators and the teachers to work within those lines or to convince the parents that the lines need to be drawn differently. Voters thru their elected representatives ultimately draw the lines. It’s government by the consent of the governed.
What did you learn from the 1619 site?
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The way to right wrongs is to
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~ Ida B. Wells
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:27 pm If the argument is whether I think CRT should be taught in K-12 I have already indicated that I thought it belonged in college where you and others indicate that it is being offered as an elective. I see no reason to independently verify that it isn’t being taught in K-12. I take your word for it. Why argue the point? We appear to agree.
Read 1619, yet?
Your second paragraph seems to indicate that I know little to nothing about US racial history. You really have non idea. You assume.
You don't know j.f. about it, because you don't read, so you can't learn. Doesn't stop you from prattling on about subjects you know zero about.

That's not an assumption, it's a fact you prove over and over, and not just on the topic of "US racial history."
Last edited by carmenjonze on Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The way to right wrongs is to
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~ Ida B. Wells
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gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:07 pm We don’t follow quite the same process in education as we do in doctor client relationships. We elect school board members. And if we don’t believe the school board members are doing a good job then we elect different school board members. But the students and the parents are the clients and they thru their elected representative draw the lines. It’s up to the administrators and the teachers to work within those lines or to convince the parents that the lines need to be drawn differently. Voters thru their elected representatives ultimately draw the lines. It’s government by the consent of the governed.
No, they don't. In some states, the nutjob right elected school board members to teach creationism masquerading as "intelligent design". The courts overruled them.

The GOP is the party of the insane.
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ProfX
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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So the thing about democracy ...

All I can say is, just because 10 people in a district show up a school board meeting, foaming at the mouth about how some course subject is making their kids gay, or how reading Toni Morrison or MLK is corrupting their minds, doesn't mean there aren't 100 parents who are fine with the curriculum. The loudest and angriest are not always representing all the parents in the district.

On this point I agree with you: school boards are elected, and the right has definitely focused on "getting their people" on them, particularly religious zealots who don't want Darwin in our schools or "Heather Has Two Mommies" in the school library. All I will say is just because those people take over school boards doesn't mean the rest of the parents in the district share their POV. In a democracy, local elections also matter, and be careful of letting zealots take over. It's a crazy thing, I know, but I think educators and people with experience in education should be on school boards.

That's all I gotta say on that, peace out.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln :D
JoeMemphis

Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:38 pm I'm making no assumptions about you.

I am however noting statements you've made which seem to indicate you think the problem with 1619 Project or things like that is that you appear to think they are detrimental to students learning other more important vocational skills.

Perhaps I am not understanding what point you are trying to make. That happens.
I have never said learning history is detrimental. Rather than assuming perhaps you should just ask. As I posted earlier, I believe the mission in K-12 is to give students a well rounded education in a number of disciplines including the liberal arts. The point I am trying to make here is that parents have a responsibility in the education of their children equal to or greater than that of teachers or anyone else for that matter. JMHO. So they need to be involved in schools and they should be listened to and respected. I am not advocating that each child get some kind of custom curriculum. But I don’t believe that teachers or schools have a license to teach other people kids whatever they choose without accountability to the public they are hired to serve. Seems to me that gives parents and teachers a lot of room in which to come to agreement.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:40 am I have never said learning history is detrimental. Rather than assuming perhaps you should just ask. As I posted earlier, I believe the mission in K-12 is to give students a well rounded education is a number of disciplines including the liberal arts. The point I am trying to make here is that parents have a responsibility in the education of their children equal to and greater than that of the. Teachers or anyone else for that matter. iMO. So they need to be involved in schools and they should be listened to and respected. I am not advocating that each child get some kind of custom curriculum. But I don’t believe that teachers or schools have a license to teach other people kids whatever they choose without accountability ti the public they are hired to serve. Seems to me that gives parents and teachers a lot of room in which to come to agreement.
The problem is you never really answer questions. You dodge them. You talk in great generalities.

Again, if racist parents don’t want their children taught about the history of slavery and the civil rights movement, do they have the right to censor teachers? Are they the ones to decide upon what science is taught? How exactly would that work?

Questions you won’t ever really answer.
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ProfX
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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JoeMemphis wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:40 am But I don’t believe that teachers or schools have a license to teach other people kids whatever they choose without accountability to the public they are hired to serve.
"Whatever they choose" is not my position. If they are teaching students Sandy Hook was a false flag op or that Tom Hanks is drinking the adrenochrome of children like them - can their ass yesterday. Nowhere would I argue for teacher unaccountability.

If they are teaching stuff that is highly accredited, historically/empirically accurate, widely used, has won awards, and is appreciated by the educational community like the 1619 Project ... you as a parent might not want your kid exposed to it ... but as I said there are choices you should make to avoid it.

Yeah, that most def. is my position.
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