Hamas fires 7000 rockets at Israel, starting major war

[ZoWie]

You are correct that, in the long run, winning a war is not unlike winning a hurricane. Everyone comes out poorer for the experience, no matter how necessary and/or justified it might have been at the time.

That in fact is pretty much my point here. Israel is guaranteeing that they'll have bigger problems in the future due to what it's doing now as a short term response to what was admittedly a dire and provocative atrocity by Hamas. You do see old resentments from the WWII era warping the thinking of the people in power here, as if the religious territorial struggle that's gone on for 3000 years wasn't enough to guarantee a total mess.

[Motor City]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tls72ppto18

"Save Us From Ourselves": 3,000+ Israelis Call For Int'l Help to Pressure Israel to Back Ceasefire

More than 3,000 Israelis have signed an open letter urging "global pressure on Israel to force an immediate ceasefire." The signatories say they are motivated by patriotic duty to stop the country's war crimes in Gaza and beyond, but say the lack of sanctions from other countries has allowed Israel to continue to pursue war, abandon the hostages still held in Gaza, ignore domestic opposition and persecute Palestinian citizens of Israel without real cost.

"Unfortunately, the majority of Israelis support the continuation of the war and massacres, and a change from within is not currently feasible. The state of Israel is on a suicidal path and sows destruction and devastation that increase day by day," reads the letter.

For more, we speak with Neve Gordon, professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary University of London, one of the signatories of the open letter, who says international powers including allies like the United States need to "put their leg down and say enough is enough." We also speak with him about Israel's well-documented history of using Palestinians as human shields, including in its current war on Gaza.

[Motor City]

You are correct that, in the long run, winning a war is not unlike winning a hurricane. Everyone comes out poorer for the experience, no matter how necessary and/or justified it might have been at the time.

That in fact is pretty much my point here. Israel is guaranteeing that they'll have bigger problems in the future due to what it's doing now as a short term response to what was admittedly a dire and provocative atrocity by Hamas. You do see old resentments from the WWII era warping the thinking of the people in power here, as if the religious territorial struggle that's gone on for 3000 years wasn't enough to guarantee a total mess.

One thing we see over and over Israels right wing extremist government tries to launder war crimes genocide, starvation violence of civilians and terrorism with thinly veiled assertions.




Israel bans UN Palestinian aid org, after 9 employees involved in Hamas attack

Israel banned UNRWA, the United Nations' Palestinian refugee relief agency, from operating in Israel on Monday after the agency admitted nine of its workers participated in the Oct. 7 Hamas attack, in a move the U.N. said could have a catastrophic impact.

"UNRWA workers involved in terrorist activities against Israel must be held accountable," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.

UNRWA, the primary humanitarian organization operating within the Gaza Strip and other Palestinian territories, services around 5.9 million Palestinian refugees with humanitarian aid and other services. Amid the ongoing conflict in Gaza, the organization now runs the enclave's schools, healthcare system, social services, and distributes humanitarian aid.

Two bills passed in Israel's Knesset on Monday would bar the organization from Israeli territory and ban Israeli officials from having any contact with it.

Although Israeli territory does not technically include Gaza and the West Bank, the legislation would still make it virtually impossible for UNRWA to operate in both territories, since Jerusalem would not allow entrance permits to the agency's workers, the Times of Israel reported.

It would also prevent coordination with Israel's Defense Forces, which is essential to the organization's operations.

The law would force the closure of UNRWA's office in East Jerusalem and prevent its staff from obtaining visas, according to Amnesty International secretary general Agnès Callamard.

"It amounts to the criminalization of humanitarian aid and will worsen an already catastrophic humanitarian crisis," Callamard said.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-OQ_o4epGc

Fmr. Israeli PM and Fmr. PA Official Offer a Path to Peace for the Region | Amanpour and Company

Some 100 people are reported dead in Gaza this morning after a strike on a multi-story building. Many of the dead are being buried in makeshift graves because official burial grounds are too dangerous to access. Tens of thousands are dead after more than a year of war, and although ceasefire talks are once again underway, a breakthrough looks unlikely.

On Sunday, Egypt had reportedly proposed a two-day ceasefire, only for Prime Minister Netanyahu’s office to say it had received no proposals. Moreover, according to Israeli media, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant has warned Netanyahu that the war is lacking in strategy and needs a reset.

Amid all this, an unlikely pair, two former senior officials — Israeli and Palestinian — are proposing what they argue is a way out of war. Ehud Olmert was Israel's Prime Minister while Nasser Al-Kidwa was Foreign Minister for the Palestinian Authority. Together, they have formulated an outline for peace, and they join the program to discuss.

[ZoWie]

The way out of war is a more moderate government in Israel that will actually seek compromise as the best method of coping with Palestinian nationalism. The "peace through superior firepower" approach has been tested for 75 years and it's only produced cycles of ever bloodier war.

[JoeMemphis]

The way out of war is a more moderate government in Israel that will actually seek compromise as the best method of coping with Palestinian nationalism. The "peace through superior firepower" approach has been tested for 75 years and it's only produced cycles of ever bloodier war.

Would you not agree that we also need a more moderate government in Gaza representing the Palestinians? A last peace requires agreement from both sides. A more moderate government in Israel will be no more successful as a peacemaker if they are dealing with Hamas. I just don’t see that all this violence is all Israel or its government. Not to say the Israeli government has no responsibility to seek a just peace but it takes two to Tango as they say.

[ZoWie]

Of course Gaza needs a more moderate government. The one it has is the direct result of Israel's extremist leadership walling off the whole place and guaranteeing that the violent factions will end up running it. The problem, as always, is that we got too good at warfare to solve problems this way any more. This go-round is showing how high the stakes have gotten. Any "victory" likely guarantees an even more militant terrorist leadership and at some point they'll find their version of Bin Laden and things will go nuclear.

Right now the definitive narrative of the 21st century is the complete breakdown of moderate politics, pretty much worldwide. We can't afford these cyclical hissy fits any more. The next one could end in human extinction.

[JoeMemphis]

Of course Gaza needs a more moderate government. The one it has is the direct result of Israel's extremist leadership walling off the whole place and guaranteeing that the violent factions will end up running it. The problem, as always, is that we got too good at warfare to solve problems this way any more. This go-round is showing how high the stakes have gotten. Any "victory" likely guarantees an even more militant terrorist leadership and at some point they'll find their version of Bin Laden and things will go nuclear.

Right now the definitive narrative of the 21st century is the complete breakdown of moderate politics, pretty much worldwide. We can't afford these cyclical hissy fits any more. The next one could end in human extinction.

You are assuming a more moderate Israeli government will lead to a more moderate Palestinian government. Thats quite a leap of faith IMO.

[gounion]

You are assuming a more moderate Israeli government will lead to a more moderate Palestinian government. Thats quite a leap of faith IMO.

Gotta start somewhere, doncha think? It might help to take the boot off their neck.

[JoeMemphis]

Gotta start somewhere, doncha think? It might help to take the boot off their neck.

Depends I guess.

If you keep trying to pet the neighborhood dog and he keeps biting you, how many bites does it take before you learn you can’t pet that dog. It doesn’t want to be petted.

This is a conflict that has been going on for centuries. Some years have been better than others, but I don’t recall a time of sustained lasting peace. I’m not sure the Palestinians want to live side by side with Israelis. After last October, I can’t say I blame the Israelis lack of trust in the Palestinians and certainly don’t blame them for their lack of trust in the Iranians and their proxies.

[gounion]

Depends I guess.

If you keep trying to pet the neighborhood dog and he keeps biting you, how many bites does it take before you learn you can’t pet that dog. It doesn’t want to be petted.

This is a conflict that has been going on for centuries. Some years have been better than others, but I don’t recall a time of sustained lasting peace. I’m not sure the Palestinians want to live side by side with Israelis. After last October, I can’t say I blame the Israelis lack of trust in the Palestinians and certainly don’t blame them for their lack of trust in the Iranians and their proxies.

So you just have the Gazans put down, right?

[JoeMemphis]

So you just have the Gazans put down, right?

I didn’t say that. I said peace is a two way street and both sides have to want it. Lasting peace can’t be made lasting unilaterally.

[gounion]

I didn’t say that. I said peace is a two way street and both sides have to want it. Lasting peace can’t be made lasting unilaterally.

When you compare a people to dogs that are uncontrollable, yes, you did.

It’d be nice to believe you would think before making such comparisons, but we all know better.

[JoeMemphis]

When you compare a people to dogs that are uncontrollable, yes, you did.

It’d be nice to believe you would think before making such comparisons, but we all know better.

Okay. So go chat with someone more on your level.

[gounion]

Okay. So go chat with someone more on your level.

Yeah, because YOU sure aren’t. You need to go back to the kiddie table, comparing human beings to dogs.

But this isn’t the first time you did that.

[JoeMemphis]

Yeah, because YOU sure aren’t. You need to go back to the kiddie table, comparing human beings to dogs.

But this isn’t the first time you did that.

No doubt we communicate on different levels. No doubt.

[gounion]

No doubt we communicate on different levels. No doubt.

Yes. I don’t compare human beings to animals. Silly of me, I know.

[Greengrass]

Yeah, because YOU sure aren’t. You need to go back to the kiddie table, comparing human beings to dogs.

But this isn’t the first time you did that.

Well, for hamas and hezbollah the comparison is appropriate. Actually that may be offensive to dogs.

[JoeMemphis]

Well, for hamas and hezbollah the comparison is appropriate. Actually that may be offensive to dogs.

I have dogs that think on a higher level than GoU. And they like everybody.

[gounion]

Well, for hamas and hezbollah the comparison is appropriate. Actually that may be offensive to dogs.

It’s always best to dehumanize enemies, isn’t it?

That’s how Trump does it to us liberals. What could possibly happen?

[gounion]

I have dogs that think on a higher level than GoU. And they like everybody.

It’s funny that’s all you got.

[Glennfs]

It’s always best to dehumanize enemies, isn’t it?

That’s how Trump does it to us liberals. What could possibly happen?

Really? and you don't see the democratic party doing the exact same thing for the last decade or so.

[gounion]

Really? and you don't see the democratic party doing the exact same thing for the last decade or so.

We really don’t call a whole people dogs.

[JoeMemphis]

We really don’t call a whole people dogs.

Dogs? No not dogs. Deplorables, garbage, Nazis, racists, facists.

I could go on but you get my drift.

My point was that you only make peace when both sides want peace. That is the case with Israel and Hamas and it’s also the case in this country between the two major political parties and their leadership.

[gounion]

Dogs? No not dogs. Deplorables, garbage, Nazis, racists, facists.

I could go on but you get my drift.

My point was that you only make peace when both sides want peace. That is the case with Israel and Hamas and it’s also the case in this country between the two major political parties and their leadership.

Yeah, it's always good to dehumanize the people you hate, call them dogs. You must be proud.

Like you're silent about Trump calling for death for people.

[JoeMemphis]

Yeah, it's always good to dehumanize the people you hate, call them dogs. You must be proud.

Like you're silent about Trump calling for death for people.

You miss the point. Again.