What they're saying is the border isn't a wide open free for all, like the GOP keeps claiming.JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:12 pm Google it. Sec of DHS is on record several times. So is WH press secretary.
House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"
- Rage Against the Machine
Are the same that burn crosses"
- Rage Against the Machine
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
How does one define a closed border?
If the definition is, for the U.S.-Mexico one, a wall sealing all roughly 2000 miles - well, Donald Trump couldn't have done it even if Congress gave him an infinite amount of money to build it - too much of the border is private property, requiring eminent domain on a scale that should make conservatives queasy, and the rest is often Indian land, riverbed, or other places where the environment would make it impossible. Aside from the fact that the wall really doesn't work.
If the definition is, patrolled adequately by border patrol and security, well, citing the # of interceptions is a firm indicator they are there and doing their job to the best of their ability. BTW, I am not a fan of the latest Biden policy, but then it would be incorrect saying he is in favor of allowing in unlimited asylum applications. He clearly is not.
Has anyone else ever "closed" the border by whatever definition the latest nativists are using? Looks to me like the answer is no. So it's not a Biden problem. Maybe Border Patrol needs more funding and agents - make that case. Personally, I do not want the return of family separation and cruelty to migrant families as DHS policy. I also think there is no more justification for Title 42, especially for the people fighting masking and all other pandemic related regulations.
If the definition is, for the U.S.-Mexico one, a wall sealing all roughly 2000 miles - well, Donald Trump couldn't have done it even if Congress gave him an infinite amount of money to build it - too much of the border is private property, requiring eminent domain on a scale that should make conservatives queasy, and the rest is often Indian land, riverbed, or other places where the environment would make it impossible. Aside from the fact that the wall really doesn't work.
If the definition is, patrolled adequately by border patrol and security, well, citing the # of interceptions is a firm indicator they are there and doing their job to the best of their ability. BTW, I am not a fan of the latest Biden policy, but then it would be incorrect saying he is in favor of allowing in unlimited asylum applications. He clearly is not.
Has anyone else ever "closed" the border by whatever definition the latest nativists are using? Looks to me like the answer is no. So it's not a Biden problem. Maybe Border Patrol needs more funding and agents - make that case. Personally, I do not want the return of family separation and cruelty to migrant families as DHS policy. I also think there is no more justification for Title 42, especially for the people fighting masking and all other pandemic related regulations.
Last edited by ProfX on Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Don't believe every quote attributed to people on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
No. Gives us a link. You made the assertion it’s up to you to back it up. Otherwise we know you’re lying.JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:12 pm Google it. Sec of DHS is on record several times. So is WH press secretary.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Great breakdown by Joan McCarter, staffer at Daily Kos, about the Fair Tax. Now, what will happen here is that anything said AGAINST the "Fair Tax" will be attacked, while the conservatives PRETEND NOT TO SUPPORT the "Fair Tax". That will be hilarious.
he proposal is a bad one. Really bad. It eliminates all federal taxes and dissolves the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and institutes a 30% national sales tax on pretty much everything. Which is just about as regressive a tax system as you can get. The sponsors are claiming that the tax is “just” 23%, but it’s actually 30%, as the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) explains. Something with a $100 price tag would cost, with the tax, $130. The proponents of the Fair Tax use that $130 as the “gross payment,” and then say that the $30 you paid in tax is just 23% of the final bill. Yes, that’s deceptive arithmetics, and no, it is not at all fair.
This obviously hits lower- and middle-income people the hardest, the ones who don’t have savings and investments and all those financial cushions against monthly bills. It would provide for “prebates,” monthly cash allowances to be distributed by the Social Security Administration (SSA), for the lowest-income people. Sure, make the chronically underfunded and struggling SSA pick up that monthly burden. That makes sense.
Those cash payments, by they way, would create a bigger welfare system than has ever existed before, and might help the lowest-income people. But that would mean that the sales tax would have to be increased on middle-income people to pay for it, and the wealthiest get off really lightly. Some estimates from a few decades ago suggest that the tax would have to be as high as 60% to cover all the revenue lost when every other federal tax is eliminated.
In 2004, ITEP estimated that “if the Fair Tax was enacted and the national sales tax rate was set at 45 percent, the poorest 80 percent of Americans would face net tax hikes from the proposal while most of those among the richest 20 percent would enjoy net tax cuts.” They’re in the process of reevaluating that in 2023 terms now. The Tax Policy Center analysis in 2011 determined that a consumption tax like this would “reduce the tax burden for the top 1 percent (who make an average of $1.6 million per year) by a stunning 40 percent.”
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
You oppose the fair tax because it would take political power away from the left wing you support.gounion wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:12 am Great breakdown by Joan McCarter, staffer at Daily Kos, about the Fair Tax. Now, what will happen here is that anything said AGAINST the "Fair Tax" will be attacked, while the conservatives PRETEND NOT TO SUPPORT the "Fair Tax". That will be hilarious.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
And that's why you support it, right?
I oppose the "Fair Tax" because it's yet another idiot childish plan from idiot right-wingers that would never work.
But hey, Ralph Norman, your Congressman, is one of the sponsors of the bill. That's another reason you're in favor, right?
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
The current or original proposal is just that a proposal. If the leftist party would take an honest look at a fair tax I am 100pct sure a form of the tax which would not only work but actually be fair to everyone while producing more revenue could be foundgounion wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:00 pm And that's why you support it, right?
I oppose the "Fair Tax" because it's yet another idiot childish plan from idiot right-wingers that would never work.
But hey, Ralph Norman, your Congressman, is one of the sponsors of the bill. That's another reason you're in favor, right?
One thing I don't think you folks know is just how large our underground economy is.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Let's be clear, you've championed this tax to me.Glennfs wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:07 pm The current or original proposal is just that a proposal. If the leftist party would take an honest look at a fair tax I am 100pct sure a form of the tax which would not only work but actually be fair to everyone while producing more revenue could be found
One thing I don't think you folks know is just how large our underground economy is.
And so you think a 60% sales tax is a smart thing. Do tell. I wonder how much of an underground economy there would be then? Hmmm. Maybe that's your deal, you think you could make a bundle in an underground economy, eh?
And this is a fringe nutcase idea that no reasonable political party would champion, but now we're going to have a full vote of the Congress on it. This is what you wanted - the GOP to be in charge. You must be proud of this vote. This isn't a debate, it's a VOTE.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
What leftist party? You mean Peace and Freedom? Does that even still exist?
Democrats are a centrist party with an opening on the moderate left, if anyone chooses to take it, which 99.99% don't.
Democrats are a centrist party with an opening on the moderate left, if anyone chooses to take it, which 99.99% don't.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Again the original proposals would look nothing like the final product. But because the left is closed-minded people like you would never consider anything that doesn't come from your left wing mastersgounion wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:12 pm Let's be clear, you've championed this tax to me.
And so you think a 60% sales tax is a smart thing. Do tell. I wonder how much of an underground economy there would be then? Hmmm. Maybe that's your deal, you think you could make a bundle in an underground economy, eh?
And this is a fringe nutcase idea that no reasonable political party would champion, but now we're going to have a full vote of the Congress on it. This is what you wanted - the GOP to be in charge. You must be proud of this vote. This isn't a debate, it's a VOTE.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Leftist party is push back from getting tired of hearing fascist party racist party etc
However the democratic party is not moderate
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Agreed: "Leftist party is push back." Thanks for understanding that both sides get pretty overheated with their rhetoric.
Disagreed: "The democratic party is not moderate." That's a failure to see the big picture. You're playing checkers in a game of 3D chess.
Disagreed: "The democratic party is not moderate." That's a failure to see the big picture. You're playing checkers in a game of 3D chess.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
It’s the final product that’s being voted upon. They aren’t putting the bill into Committee to be debated. They are having a vote on a final bill without going to Committee. They are bypassing the normal order. That’s your side doing this.
Your Congressman is a sponsor of the bill.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
This is a bunch of lying bullshit. You've been calling the Dems things like communists, radical socialists, extreme left, Marxist, etc., since you started posting on these boards. I know because I've been around these parts for years.
You seem to think it's OK to come on a liberal message board and constantly attack liberals, but you sure get whiny and cry when it's pointed out how extreme your party is. The fact is, there is no bottom. Your party attempted a coup and want nothing but power, and you just don't care.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"
- Rage Against the Machine
Are the same that burn crosses"
- Rage Against the Machine
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
The Fair/Flat tax isn’t going to pass. It may get a vote but it won’t pass.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
It will get a majority of GOP votes. This is what you wanted. This is what you voted for. A GOP Majority that could do what it wanted.JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:31 pm The Fair/Flat tax isn’t going to pass. It may get a vote but it won’t pass.
Do you consider this reasonable and intelligent governing?
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
I personally have not heard a proposal to replace the current tax system I could support. We will see how many votes this proposal garners. I highly doubt it will get a majority of Republican votes. I highly doubt it will pass the house.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Look this is what you wanted. This is what you call reasonable and intelligent governance?JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:28 pm I personally have not heard a proposal to replace the current tax system I could support. We will see how many votes this proposal garners. I highly doubt it will get a majority of Republican votes. I highly doubt it will pass the house.
No, it won’t pass the House. But it WILL overwhelmingly pass the GOP representatives, because they are scared of their base, and they know if they don’t vote for it, they’ll be primaried.
That’s how your side rolls. Again, you wanted this.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
I already stated quite clearly what I support.gounion wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:56 pm Look this is what you wanted. This is what you call reasonable and intelligent governance?
No, it won’t pass the House. But it WILL overwhelmingly pass the GOP representatives, because they are scared of their base, and they know if they don’t vote for it, they’ll be primaried.
That’s how your side rolls. Again, you wanted this.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
No, you never do. You always run away. But you say you vote in your own interests. Tell me, how is shutting down our economy by refusing to raise the debt ceiling in your best interests?
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
I already stated more than once I haven’t seen a bill on the “Fair” tax that I could support. More than once. I betting you can’t show a single post to the contrary.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Look, THIS is what you wanted. You wanted these people to run the House.JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:19 pm I already stated more than once I haven’t seen a bill on the “Fair” tax that I could support. More than once. I betting you can’t show a single post to the contrary.
They want to shut down the IRS, and set up this tax. So, are you on the Democrat’s side on this? Are you against what the people you vote for are doing? Yes or no?
Do you believe demanding votes on such a stupid bill is reasonable and intelligent? Is this what you think the GOP should be doing?
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
I already stated quite clearly my position on the aforementioned proposal. More than once. Further I stated that it won’t get out of the house. I don’t believe it will get a majority from either party.gounion wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:35 pm Look, THIS is what you wanted. You wanted these people to run the House.
They want to shut down the IRS, and set up this tax. So, are you on the Democrat’s side on this? Are you against what the people you vote for are doing? Yes or no?
Do you believe demanding votes on such a stupid bill is reasonable and intelligent? Is this what you think the GOP should be doing?
It’s there in plain English. Do you read plain English. Are you capable of understanding plain English.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Again, are these the reasonable and intelligent actions of your party? Yes or no?JoeMemphis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:13 pm I already stated quite clearly my position on the aforementioned proposal. More than once. Further I stated that it won’t get out of the house. I don’t believe it will get a majority from either party.
It’s there in plain English. Do you read plain English. Are you capable of understanding plain English.
Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax
Not my party. Having a vote that you know goes no where happens frequently in the House. Your party did it all the time. So I guess one is no more reasonable or intelligent than the other.