House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

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gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:15 am The abolishing of the irs is a waste of time and something political parties do to appease the base.
Both parties do it and it is nothing more than pandering.
No, the Dems have never been for abolishing the IRS. But the entire House GOP is now a waste of time, isn't it?
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:11 pm It has been talked about for decades and never really gets any traction. It has other problems. Bottomline, there isn’t a majority in either party or in either house to support a proposal. Talking about a bill versus actually passing a bill is vastly different.
Because it's insane. But the people you vote for are for it. Look, this is what YOU wanted. When this bill comes up, a majority of Republicans will be voting for it.

So this is what you want for our nation.
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Drak
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by Drak »

Where are the bills on inflation and gas?


And gas stoves :lol:
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

- Rage Against the Machine
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

Drak wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:27 am Where are the bills on inflation and gas?


And gas stoves :lol:
I think they're working on a bill preventing M&Ms from having female cartoon characters in their cartoons.
Bludogdem
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:13 am You don’t know what you’re talking about. We’ve debated this on the board many times over the years. It’s a scam no reasonable person would touch. Which, I guess is why you’re touting it.

The big part of the scam is that to make it work, the company would have to KEEP what it’s now paying for employee tax withholding. So, say with wild ballpark figures, and you make $100 grand a year in salary, but after income tax withholding, you only bring home $85,000, after the “Fair Tax” you would still only bring home $85,000, whereas, say, the investor who makes $100 grand would keep every dime of the $100 grand.

This is just a scam to shift the tax burden completely onto the poor and working class.
I said it’s interesting. Not in favor.

Under the legislation introduced there is no income tax. There is no withholding. Payroll is a business expense and is not taxable.

Here’s the text. Show me where there is withholding.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-con ... t?r=17&s=1

By way of further explanation everyone gets the “ Family consumption allowance” based on family size and poverty level for that size. If you’re a family of 4 you get a monthly payment from the feds ($27,750 * .23 / 12) of $531.88. So a family of 4 at that pay level is completely reimbursed for their sales taxes and for families of 4 with higher incomes the first $27,750 is tax free.
Bludogdem
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by Bludogdem »

ProfX wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:05 pm The Trouble with the FairTax
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax

FairTax advocates counter that their proposal would also replace regressive payroll and excise taxes (as well as highly progressive estate taxes), but the bottom line is that tax burdens on middle-income households would surely rise while high-income families would get a big tax cut.

Some people might call that an UnfairTax.

[snip][end]
So what’s the impact on middle income? What’s middle income?

There are also other credits and adjustments available. There’s an additional marriage tax adjustment to go with the Family consumption allowance.
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:16 am I said it’s interesting. Not in favor.

Under the legislation introduced there is no income tax. There is no withholding. Payroll is a business expense and is not taxable.

Here’s the text. Show me where there is withholding.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-con ... t?r=17&s=1

By way of further explanation everyone gets the “ Family consumption allowance” based on family size and poverty level for that size. If you’re a family of 4 you get a monthly payment from the feds ($27,750 * .23 / 12) of $531.88. So a family of 4 at that pay level is completely reimbursed for their sales taxes and for families of 4 with higher incomes the first $27,750 is tax free.
What a goddamned joke. You say you're not in favor, then defend it! :lol: :lol: :lol:

This is the exact same tax that's been pushed by a bunch of groups for nearly twenty years. Here's the expose from Money Magazine in 2005:
The FairTax is what economists call a consumption tax, and the basic economic rationale for it is the same as for all such taxes. It is designed to make saving and investing more attractive to people and companies, which most economists think would spur economic growth as people plow more cash into starting businesses, building factories and so on. With the FairTax you'd get taxed only when you spend money on retail goods and services.

The trouble with a pure consumption tax is that it can put a hideous burden on poor and middle-class people, who have to spend most of what they earn to live.

So the FairTax tweaks the formula by sending a "prebate" to every American for the amount of tax they pay on spending up to the poverty line, which today is $22,400 for a couple with one kid. In effect, basic necessities are tax-free. FairTaxers propose a tax worth 23 of each $1 you spend, so a family of three earning $30,000 a year and spending that much on taxable goods would pay about 6 percent of their income in tax after the rebate. A family earning and spending $125,000, about 19 percent. (State and local taxes would be levied on top of that.)

The rebates help make the FairTax progressive -- tax jargon for "richer people pay more." For the very rich, however, that's not quite the whole story. Say you earn $2 million a year. You can live pretty well spending $1 million, and as a result pay a mere 11 percent of that year's income in taxes. If the very rich pay less, that means more of the total tax burden in any year has to fall on somebody else, most likely the middle class. Reasonable people can disagree about whether this really matters -- over time, a consumption tax looks more progressive because the rich savers or their descendants eventually spend the money and get taxed. But Boortz and Linder say that all this worry about progressivity at the top is just jealous carping anyway. "We have very few Communists left in this world, but there are some," says the congressman.

*snip*

Toward the end of The FairTax Book, there's a handy little box summarizing what the authors say will happen if we make the switch to a sales tax. Here are the first three points:

We start collecting 100 percent of our earnings in every paycheck.

We all get virtual raises, since payroll taxes are no longer siphoned

From our checks.

We all start receiving monthly prebates equal to the amount of

Consumption tax we would be expected to pay on life's basic necessities.

This sounds pretty good. Of course, we know that it isn't nearly as big a gift as it seems because we'll have to pay some of it back in taxes when we buy things at the store, right? Er, apparently not. Boortz and Linder write:

The prices of consumer goods and services remain essentially the same, with the removal of embedded taxes compensating for the added consumption tax.

We'll explain this bit about "embedded taxes" in a moment. But first, let's consider what Boortz and Linder appear to be saying. Prices at the store are the same. Your boss stops taking all that money out of your paycheck. Uncle Sam is sending you money instead. And, oh yeah, the government is still up and running.

This just can't happen. "It is practically and logically impossible for the government be collecting the same amount of money as before and have everyone suddenly be better off," says Daniel Shaviro, a tax law professor at New York University.

Part of the problem is the way Boortz and Linder are using the idea of embedded taxes. In an eight-year-old study paid for by AFFT, Harvard economist Dale Jorgenson noted that because the taxes paid by everyone in the chain of production are embedded in the cost of goods, prices could decline an average of 20 percent if all those taxes were scrapped. The FairTax Book devotes an entire chapter to this idea.

What The FairTax Book fails to mention is that prices can only fall this sharply if companies cut wages. I asked Jorgenson about this, and he agreed. Say your salary is $100,000 a year today, but you take home $80,000 after taxes.

Your company is still paying that extra $20,000. In a FairTax world, it will save that money, and be able to lower its prices accordingly, only if it can reduce your salary to $80,000. In other words, your take-home pay is the same as before. Sure, you'd get to "keep 100 percent of your paycheck," as Boortz and Linder repeatedly write, but it would be a smaller paycheck. That's kind of a big thing to leave out.

I pressed the point with Boortz and Linder. Boortz denies that the book intentionally overpromises. The introduction, he notes, emphasizes that "this book isn't about saving a penny in taxes." But he concedes that the book is confusing about this, and vows to correct it in later printings. Fair enough.

Meanwhile, these guys want to replace the entire tax code, they've ignited a populist movement to get it done, and tens of thousands of copies of the uncorrected book make the FairTax sound like magic
Without this little flaw, everything will always cost 30% more. For a bunch of folks bemoaning the CURRENT high price of groceries, how are you going to sell this?

But this is what the GOP wants. And you IDIOTS vote for them.

And yes, Glenn, Ralph Norman is a sponsor of this bill!
bird
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by bird »

JoeMemphis wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:26 pm I vote for candidates that support many policies I support. Doesn’t mean this individuals and I see eye to eye on everything. As a conservative I tend to support the more conservative choice just as you tend to vote for progressives. As you suggesting that if a progressive candidate doesn’t agree with all of your policy preferences that you vote conservative. I don’t think so.

To expect any two people to agree on everything is fucked up logic and stupid. What I don’t understand is why supposedly intelligent people on this board don’t get that simple fact and keep asking such a stupid question. What I don’t understand is why supposedly intelligent people expect conservatives to do something they themselves would not and do not do? Why is that Bird? Pretty fucked up logic. Hypocritical as well.
Nope. Failure again. Why failure? Name ONE “conservative” policy that has basis in actual reality. And, yeah, I have not voted for certain Democratic candidates because they do not meet my own requirements. I might simply skip that person or, if given a choice, select someone else. I generally do not vote for Republicans because their thought process calcified in the 1950’s. See William F. Buckley for that. Republicans fear change, period. You, however, knowing that a Republican doesn’t support what you support simply go ahead and fill in the circle for the Republican. Yeah, you’re hypocritical because you spout something you claim to believe and still vote for those who don’t. So your values are meaningless.
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:45 am Song of the South
Show me when the government banned Song of the South.
JoeMemphis

Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:54 am Because it's insane. But the people you vote for are for it. Look, this is what YOU wanted. When this bill comes up, a majority of Republicans will be voting for it.

So this is what you want for our nation.
Again, I haven't supported a Fair Tax.

You and Bird seem to think that if you vote for a candidate that you share their views and support their point of view on every policy. That's the theory you keep pushing. Its fucked up logic but I'll give you a chance to prove it. So what don't you two brain surgeons get together and show me some polling that shows where 100% of Democrats agree on policy. In fact show me some polling that shows where 100% of Republicans agree on policy. Then show me polling that shows where independent voters who lean towards one party or another agree agree 100% with every single policy of the party to which they lean.

Hell I bet you can't show that in North Korea, China or Russia. But that's how you guys think. That's all you seem to understand. Now that IS some fucked up logic. But you guys keep selling that shit like it don't stink.
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:29 pm Again, I haven't supported a Fair Tax.

You and Bird seem to think that if you vote for a candidate that you share their views and support their point of view on every policy. That's the theory you keep pushing. Its fucked up logic but I'll give you a chance to prove it. So what don't you two brain surgeons get together and show me some polling that shows where 100% of Democrats agree on policy. In fact show me some polling that shows where 100% of Republicans agree on policy. Then show me polling that shows where independent voters who lean towards one party or another agree agree 100% with every single policy of the party to which they lean.

Hell I bet you can't show that in North Korea, China or Russia. But that's how you guys think. That's all you seem to understand. Now that IS some fucked up logic. But you guys keep selling that shit like it don't stink.
But you say one thing, and vote another. There are bright lines I’d never cross with my vote. You don’t seem to ever give a shit. No matter what they do, you vote for them.

I would never vote for ANY candidate who wouldn’t support a woman’s right to her own body. I would NEVER vote for ANY candidate that would take rights away from the LGBTQ+ community.

But even though you espouse strong support for women’s right and gay rights, you have no problem voting for people that will stomp all over them.
JoeMemphis

Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:00 pm But you say one thing, and vote another. There are bright lines I’d never cross with my vote. You don’t seem to ever give a shit. No matter what they do, you vote for them.

I would never vote for ANY candidate who wouldn’t support a woman’s right to her own body. I would NEVER vote for ANY candidate that would take rights away from the LGBTQ+ community.

But even though you espouse strong support for women’s right and gay rights, you have no problem voting for people that will stomp all over them.
You seem to believe that one must agree with everything a candidate supports in order to vote for them. Some weird fucked up transitive property of support. So prove it. Show me where all you and your Dem buddies agree on everything point by point. Show me where all voters who vote your ticket agree with every policy. I get you don’t know how to think or reason for yourself and the thought that it is possible in other people is foreign to you. But back up your theory. Show us the polls where everyone who openly supports your candidates agree with them on every issue. Show me where independents who lean Democrat agree with their candidates on every issue.

If you are going to keep pumping out that stupid shit - prove it.
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:42 pm You seem to believe that one must agree with everything a candidate supports in order to vote for them. Some weird fucked up transitive property of support. So prove it. Show me where all you and your Dem buddies agree on everything point by point. Show me where all voters who vote your ticket agree with every policy. I get you don’t know how to think or reason for yourself and the thought that it is possible in other people is foreign to you. But back up your theory. Show us the polls where everyone who openly supports your candidates agree with them on every issue. Show me where independents who lean Democrat agree with their candidates on every issue.

If you are going to keep pumping out that stupid shit - prove it.
Again, I don't have to agree with them on everything, but as I said, there's bright lines I won't cross.

You say you're for women's rights, and gay rights, but you don't mind voting for people that want to take away those rights.

So you don't really care about those rights at all. I know why - because it doesn't affect YOU, and you're selfish and only truly care about what affects YOU. Conservatism is an ideology about selfishness.
Glennfs
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:32 am Again, I don't have to agree with them on everything, but as I said, there's bright lines I won't cross.

You say you're for women's rights, and gay rights, but you don't mind voting for people that want to take away those rights.

So you don't really care about those rights at all. I know why - because it doesn't affect YOU, and you're selfish and only truly care about what affects YOU. Conservatism is an ideology about selfishness.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3442921 ... 0scenarios.

Those selfish conservatives give significantly more money to charity than liberals.
But, I have ti admit you folks are far more generous with other people's money
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:34 am https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3442921 ... 0scenarios.

Those selfish conservatives give significantly more money to charity than liberals.
But, I have ti admit you folks are far more generous with other people's money
First, this is just another diversion, because you can't answer the thread. But yes, conservatives give a shitload more money to their churches. That's not like giving to the Cancer Society. Conservatives only give to the charities that they can get something out of. Like when the First Lady gave money to Hurricane Relief and directed it to go to a member of her family's business.
JoeMemphis

Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:32 am Again, I don't have to agree with them on everything, but as I said, there's bright lines I won't cross.

You say you're for women's rights, and gay rights, but you don't mind voting for people that want to take away those rights.

So you don't really care about those rights at all. I know why - because it doesn't affect YOU, and you're selfish and only truly care about what affects YOU. Conservatism is an ideology about selfishness.
Abortion isn’t solely about women’s rights. If it were then it would have been solved years ago. Plus there are thousands of women who don’t agree with your position. You don’t speak for all women.

But bottomline, not everyone agrees on everything. So if that’s the criteria you use to vote, no one could vote at all. I sure as hell am not going to vote for the party that turns their head at millions of people streaming across the border as if it isn’t happening. I’m not going to vote for a party that would give the Federal government a monopoly over health care. I’m not going to vote for a party that would place itself between a parent and a child. No thanks.
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:07 am Abortion isn’t solely about women’s rights. If it were then it would have been solved years ago. Plus there are thousands of women who don’t agree with your position. You don’t speak for all women.

But bottomline, not everyone agrees on everything. So if that’s the criteria you use to vote, no one could vote at all. I sure as hell am not going to vote for the party that turns their head at millions of people streaming across the border as if it isn’t happening. I’m not going to vote for a party that would give the Federal government a monopoly over health care. I’m not going to vote for a party that would place itself between a parent and a child. No thanks.
Again, you prove right away that you really don’t believe in woman’s rights, you were lying when you said you did. And you ignore the gay rights, because you really don’t care about them either. And you really like what you side did, taking babies from their mothers and sending them across the country? But it’s okay to put the government between THOSE women and their children, because they have brown skin are therefore not human in your eyes, right?

What about Taking you Florida tax money to put Asylum seekers legally in this country on a bus in Texas to drop them on the side of the street in another state on Christmas Eve?

You’re for the party that would vote to repeal our health care with no replacement taking insurance from millions. Again, if you don’t like our health care what would you do?

Oh wait you need to run away from that question.
Glennfs
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:23 am Again, you prove right away that you really don’t believe in woman’s rights, you were lying when you said you did. And you ignore the gay rights, because you really don’t care about them either. And you really like what you side did, taking babies from their mothers and sending them across the country? But it’s okay to put the government between THOSE women and their children, because they have brown skin are therefore not human in your eyes, right?

What about Taking you Florida tax money to put Asylum seekers legally in this country on a bus in Texas to drop them on the side of the street in another state on Christmas Eve?

You’re for the party that would vote to repeal our health care with no replacement taking insurance from millions. Again, if you don’t like our health care what would you do?

Oh wait you need to run away from that question.
So women and gay rights are only as defined by progressives.

So what right do I have that a gsy person doesn't have
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:26 am So women and gay rights are only as defined by progressives.

So what right do I have that a gsy person doesn't have
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-pol ... -rcna20418
JoeMemphis

Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:23 am Again, you prove right away that you really don’t believe in woman’s rights, you were lying when you said you did. And you ignore the gay rights, because you really don’t care about them either. And you really like what you side did, taking babies from their mothers and sending them across the country? But it’s okay to put the government between THOSE women and their children, because they have brown skin are therefore not human in your eyes, right?

What about Taking you Florida tax money to put Asylum seekers legally in this country on a bus in Texas to drop them on the side of the street in another state on Christmas Eve?

You’re for the party that would vote to repeal our health care with no replacement taking insurance from millions. Again, if you don’t like our health care what would you do?

Oh wait you need to run away from that question.
Oh I believe in a whole lot of things. But this is a democracy. I am not king of the world. And I understand that different people see things differently. I am not so arrogant as you to believe I have the only answer.

And as far as the border and the migrants, according to your folks, there’s no problem. The border is closed. It’s secure and under control. All these mayors and governors just don’t know what they are talking about. Ignore the numbers. Record numbers. Don’t believe your eyes. The reason all those folks are here in the first place is because this administration opened the door and invited them in. Read the Biden Build Back Better plan. I did. It’s all about letting people in and nothing, I repeat nothing about enforcement. All this was predicted. So don’t pretend to be surprised.
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:00 pm Oh I believe in a whole lot of things. But this is a democracy. I am not king of the world. And I understand that different people see things differently. I am not so arrogant as you to believe I have the only answer.

And as far as the border and the migrants, according to your folks, there’s no problem. The border is closed. It’s secure and under control. All these mayors and governors just don’t know what they are talking about. Ignore the numbers. Record numbers. Don’t believe your eyes. The reason all those folks are here in the first place is because this administration opened the door and invited them in. Read the Biden Build Back Better plan. I did. It’s all about letting people in and nothing, I repeat nothing about enforcement. All this was predicted. So don’t pretend to be surprised.
That’s just a lie. We don’t say it’s closed and secure. We know there’s problems. But it’s you guys who says it’s wide open. You’re a liar as always.

And yes you guys lie all the time.

Question - do you want to build a tall wall over the entire border? Yes or no? And if we did build Trump’s wall would it stop illegal immigration?

Oh right I forgot. You’re too cowardly to answer questions.
JoeMemphis

Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:03 pm That’s just a lie. We don’t say it’s closed and secure. We know there’s problems. But it’s you guys who says it’s wide open. You’re a liar as always.

And yes you guys lie all the time.

Question - do you want to build a tall wall over the entire border? Yes or no? And if we did build Trump’s wall would it stop illegal immigration?

Oh right I forgot. You’re too cowardly to answer questions.
The Secretary of Homeland Security says it’s closed. The WH press secretary says it’s closed. Maybe it’s Opposite Day for them.
gounion
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:07 pm The Secretary of Homeland Security says it’s closed. The WH press secretary says it’s closed. Maybe it’s Opposite Day for them.
Give us links.
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Drak
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Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by Drak »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:00 pm

And as far as the border and the migrants, according to your folks, there’s no problem. The border is closed. It’s secure and under control. All these mayors and governors just don’t know what they are talking about. Ignore the numbers.
This is a lie. No one says the border is closed. Border policy has been the same for decades. As soon as Biden walked in the front door the people you vote for claimed there was an instant crisis, then constantly hit the border with props and photo ops, and you buy everything the GOP tells you. And it's hilarious that you claim to be a fiscal conservative but have no problem throwing trillions of dollars at a "wall" that is just a glorified rust covered fence that can be scaled easily with ladders and topples over in the wind.
"Some of those that work forces,
Are the same that burn crosses"

- Rage Against the Machine
JoeMemphis

Re: House to vote to abolish IRS and institute Fair Tax

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:08 pmGive us links.
Google it. Sec of DHS is on record several times. So is WH press secretary.
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