Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Col. Jessep
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

Post by Col. Jessep »

ShineOn » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:57 am wrote:Sure, but why wasn't Cruz more accurate in his initial comments?
IMO, he was plenty accurate in his initial comments. I and many others understood exactly what point he was making, and the point he was making was true.
Why stir up emotions like that?

He is supposed to be a leader and in being one it is reasonable to expect that he will work towards helping people understand what is really going on, instead of pandering for votes.
What's really going on??

When taken in its proper context, what he said is going on really is what is going on.
Now, perhaps you also do not yet understand that these so-called boys who would be in the girls locker rooms "hanging out" with your and my daughters are not really boys. They have been carefully examined and identified as being girls that may have some anatomical features of boys; two varieties exist - boys that realize they are girls and true hermaphrodites. My impression is that the former is actually even less common than the latter; there are lots of hermaphrodites. It's a biological thing, you know.

Just more weird science, I suppose.
Yes, I understand politically correct "scientists" will ignore an individual's biological sex and happily label folks whatever they want to be labeled.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Well, there is a difference between gender and biological sex.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it matters to this discussion.

I will note, though, that yes, gender is not just a person's beliefs about their own identity, but also the cultural role assigned to them by society, that latter part is inescapable.

BTW, in many ways, that's why gender is very similar to ethnic identity. You can ethnically identify as you choose, but that won't necessarily change how others in society view you.

Very excellent article. Maybe particularly the part about gender essentialism. But, also, in particular, the findings of where essentialist tendencies come from ... psychologically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential ... sentialism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

Post by ShineOn »

Col. Jessep » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:16 am wrote: Yes, I understand politically correct "scientists" will ignore an individual's biological sex and happily label folks whatever they want to be labeled.
K-12 school principals are highly political positions that demand a great deal of administrative and leadership skills, for both public and private schools.

No doubt, mistakes happen, just as with other social institutions, such as police departments. However, in that same vain, wouldn't it make sense that most of the folks involved are going to provide our children with a level of protection that parents can generally find acceptable?

I think your attitude towards these people is too cynical. They are dedicated professionals, just like you and me, and all of the law enforcement personnel you appear to endlessly defend, and it seems to me that they deserve just a tad more respect than you seem to be willing to show them.

Well, actually, more than just a tad.

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

Post by justme01 »

glenfs » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:08 am wrote:
I would rather support a party that has a handful of racist than belong to a party that is openly supported by communists.

So, you have finally come out and admitted it.

You support racism.

Why am not I surprised.

You support racism Glen, your words. You have no problem with people who think that the color of a person's skin or their religion or sexual identity is grounds to engage in discrimination and hate.



You support racism Glen. You support the hate and violence behind racism Glen.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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ShineOn » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:16 am wrote: K-12 school principals are highly political positions that demand a great deal of administrative and leadership skills, for both public and private schools.

No doubt, mistakes happen, just as with other social institutions, such as police departments. However, in that same vain, wouldn't it make sense that most of the folks involved are going to provide our children with a level of protection that parents can generally find acceptable?

I think your attitude towards these people is too cynical. They are dedicated professionals, just like you and me, and all of the law enforcement personnel you appear to endlessly defend, and it seems to me that they deserve just a tad more respect than you seem to be willing to show them.

Well, actually, more than just a tad.

Regarding protecting children, we were just discussing this a few days ago in our house.

There is a transgendered student who attends the high school my daughter graduated from. My daughter showed me pictures of this individual (whom she is friends with on Facebook). Apparently, this person has been undergoing hormone therapy for many years. Ignoring for a moment the question of whether it is medically ethical to perform such therapy on a child who is not even 12 years old, what was clear to me is this individual looks very much like a girl at this point. This person has very female features (facial structure, lack of body hair, average sized breasts, etc.).

There is no doubt in my mind this person's physical appearance puts her in a greater degree of physical danger if she were to shower in the men's locker room than if she showered with the girls. However, she still has all of the male external genitalia she was born with, so her presence may be disconcerting to other girls (especially younger girls) in the same locker room.

Quite frankly, I have less of a problem allowing this student into the women's locker room than I have someone like Colleen Francis. This student has committed to full gender reassignment surgery. Colleen Francis had no such intentions.

There is a balancing act which must be performed to weigh the rights of folks like this student against the potential danger of letting any male into a female locker room with young girls, which can happen if all that is necessary to gain access is to claim you are a "woman-at-heart."

To me, the best solution to balance those competing interests is to have a third space available for transgendered individuals. I understand the objection that doing so is stigmatizing, but in my opinion, the safety of everyone involved trumps subjecting a tiny minority to some potentially stigmatizing effects.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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ProfessorX » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:25 am wrote:I will note, though, that yes, gender is not just a person's beliefs about their own identity, but also the cultural role assigned to them by society, that latter part is inescapable.
Quite right.

Society should have the right to set boundaries which are in society's best interests.

The federal government through the current administration seeks to take that collective right away. That is the point Cruz was making. That point is undeniably true.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Number6 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 pm wrote: Got proof that PolitiFact has left wing bias or is this just another one of your Troll-and-runaway posts?
This is why we cant have nice things.

No matter how much proof there is that these stats are accurate, they will NEVER believe it.

Like no matter how high the water is from climate change on their front porch, they will NEVER believe it since Al Gore is the one who told them about it.

I blame Fox a lot for this brain damage.
ANYONE who still supports the GOP is a domestic TERRORIST.

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

Post by justme01 »

glenfs » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:08 am wrote:
I would rather support a party that has a handful of racist than belong to a party that is openly supported by communists.
You do not know or understand what communism is.

You would not know a communist if a communist came up and kissed your racist supporting ass.

You support racism Glen. You support the hate and the violence behind racism Glen.

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

Post by justme01 »

Number6 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 pm wrote: Got proof that PolitiFact has left wing bias or is this just another one of your Troll-and-runaway posts?
Facts give Col. KornFlakes a headache.

Facts, as Stephanie Miller loves to say are "French and Gay."

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Col. Jessep » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:51 am wrote: Society should have the right to set boundaries which are in society's best interests.
Except, of course, when there is no actual societal interest but irrational fear.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Defining society's interest is the hard part, now isn't it?

Obviously it's in the public safety and common good to do things like put out fires and bust serial killers, after that it's all open for discussion and personal opinion. Anyone who says they have all the answers should be suspect right there.
Can we get serious about the climate now?

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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ProfessorX » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:05 pm wrote:
Except, of course, when there is no actual societal interest but irrational fear.
So you see nothing but "irrational fear" in this situation?

Are there sexual predators in your world?
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Col. Jessep » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:51 am wrote:
Quite right.

Society should have the right to set boundaries which are in society's best interests.

The federal government through the current administration seeks to take that collective right away. That is the point Cruz was making. That point is undeniably true.
societal interest...

an interesting point.

what societal interest was benefited by denying inter-racial marriage? what societal interest was benefited by denying women the right to vote?

farther on you mention sexual predators. are you equating transgender boys with sexual predators?

society does a damn fine job determining interests that result in placing "the other" in the position of second class. and society uses government, which is a tool of society and not an instrument that exists in a vacuum, to do just that. acceptable by some in some instances and unacceptable by those same in other instances. cruz is not right. he simply notes that various groups will use the tools open to them for various purposes. he simply wishes to use those tools himself. there is nothing noble or on the side of angels about mr. cruz.
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Col. Jessep » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:14 pm wrote: Are there sexual predators in your world?
Yeah, I just saw a film about them called Spotlight, there were 900 of them in Boston alone. They belonged to this thing called the Catholic Church.

It might be far more rational to fear priests.

It's just that I don't believe transgenders are any more likely to be predatory than anybody else, just as there is no evidence that there is an intrinsic connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. (Many of those priests, as the film did mention, did abuse girls. However, they usually had more access to altar boys.)

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Two issues here, really. Those who are liars and those who want to hear the lies.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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ProfessorX » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:52 pm wrote: It's just that I don't believe transgenders are any more likely to be predatory than anybody else...
Neither do I.

My concern isn't that transgendered people are more likely to be offenders. I agree there is no evidence to suggest such an assertion is valid. My concern is that a real sexual predator is going to throw on a wig and some makeup and walk into the ladies locker room at Evergreen State College and no one will have legal grounds to exclude him from that area.

Tell me, professor; how can you distinguish between someone like Colleen Francis, a transgendered biological male who wears a wig and makeup who may be entirely harmless, and a true male predator who adorns himself similarly?

I consider the answer to that question pivotal (see below).

As for the graph you posted, I noticed a few folks were "not aware" of any problems.

I assume you know we have laws in this country against the possession of child pornography. Why is the mere possession of such material prohibited (rather than just the production of it)? One reason is there is evidence to suggest individuals who routinely view child pornography are more likely to offend.

Liken that to the scenario above. Assume we allow full access to women's locker rooms like the one at Evergreen State College. We rightly do not allow our citizens access to pornographic material involving children because we recognize it may make people prone to pedophilia more likely to offend. Yet we appear to be willing to allow true predators access to areas where they can view naked children whenever they damn well please simply because we are afraid of potentially stigmatizing a small minority. Similar to the possession of child pornography, while that unfettered access may not result in a direct attack in the locker room because it is a highly public place, it may very well make a true predator more "agitated" and more likely to offend elsewhere.

In response to the question I asked you above, IMO, there is absolutely no non-stigmatizing way to tell the difference between a transgendered person who means no harm and a true predator whose intent is nefarious. Because of this, IMO, allowing that unfettered access exposes vulnerable members of our society to an undue amount of risk for "insufficient reward."

Any civil rights issue comes down to balancing competing interests. When it comes to balancing the competing interests of individuals in this case, I believe the safety and privacy rights of the majority clearly outweigh the rights of the minority.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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bird » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:22 pm wrote:farther on you mention sexual predators. are you equating transgender boys with sexual predators?
No.

See above.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Col. Jessep » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:00 pm wrote:
Neither do I.

My concern isn't that transgendered people are more likely to be offenders. I agree there is no evidence to suggest such an assertion is valid. My concern is that a real sexual predator is going to throw on a wig and some makeup and walk into the ladies locker room at Evergreen State College and no one will have legal grounds to exclude him from that area.

Tell me, professor; how can you distinguish between someone like Colleen Francis, a transgendered biological male who wears a wig and makeup who may be entirely harmless, and a true male predator who adorns himself similarly?

I consider the answer to that question pivotal (see below).

As for the graph you posted, I noticed a few folks were "not aware" of any problems.

I assume you know we have laws in this country against the possession of child pornography. Why is the mere possession of such material prohibited (rather than just the production of it)? One reason is there is evidence to suggest individuals who routinely view child pornography are more likely to offend.

Liken that to the scenario above. Assume we allow full access to women's locker rooms like the one at Evergreen State College. We rightly do not allow our citizens access to pornographic material involving children because we recognize it may make people prone to pedophilia more likely to offend. Yet we appear to be willing to allow true predators access to areas where they can view naked children whenever they damn well please simply because we are afraid of potentially stigmatizing a small minority. Similar to the possession of child pornography, while that unfettered access may not result in a direct attack in the locker room because it is a highly public place, it may very well make a true predator more "agitated" and more likely to offend elsewhere.

In response to the question I asked you above, IMO, there is absolutely no non-stigmatizing way to tell the difference between a transgendered person who means no harm and a true predator whose intent is nefarious. Because of this, IMO, allowing that unfettered access exposes vulnerable members of our society to an undue amount of risk for "insufficient reward."

Any civil rights issue comes down to balancing competing interests. When it comes to balancing the competing interests of individuals in this case, I believe the safety and privacy rights of the majority clearly outweigh the rights of the minority.
"No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").[2]

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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgenders are not Objects. Get over it.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

Post by minsocal »

What is a lie?

"Feminist Perspectives on Objectification

First published Wed Mar 10, 2010; substantive revision Tue Dec 1, 2015
Objectification is a notion central to feminist theory. It can be roughly defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object. In this entry, the focus is primarily on sexual objectification, objectification occurring in the sexual realm. Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object:

instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier's purposes;
denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;
inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;
fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;
violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;
ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);
denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.
Rae Langton (2009, 228–229) has added three more features to Nussbaum's list:

reduction to body: the treatment of a person as identified with their body, or body parts;
reduction to appearance: the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses;
silencing: the treatment of a person as if they are silent, lacking the capacity to speak.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/femin ... ification/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Col. Jessep » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:00 pm wrote: I assume you know we have laws in this country against the possession of child pornography. Why is the mere possession of such material prohibited (rather than just the production of it)?
Same reason we do not allow lawful purchase, consumption, possession, and viewing of snuff films or depictions of actual rape -- even by viewers. They are visual records of criminal activity.

In answer to your other question, I believe school administrators can tell the difference between transgender people and someone who's just pretending. Presumably they are screened by school psychologists and counselors first.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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ProfessorX » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:03 pm wrote:They are visual records of criminal activity.
Here is a YouTube video of an assault on a homeless man: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cv6Hc5naOyk

That's a visual record of criminal activity. Did I just break the law?

Regarding child porn, while there is dispute about the causal relationship between viewing child pornography and assaulting children, there is sufficient evidence of a significant correlation to err on the side of caution. To wit:
Research
A 1987 report by the U.S.A. National Institute of Justice described "a disturbing correlation" between traders of child pornography and acts of child molestation.[6] A 2008 longitudinal study of 341 convicted child molesters in America found that pornography's use correlated significantly with their rate of sexually re-offending. Frequency of pornography use was primarily a further risk factor for higher-risk offenders, when compared with lower-risk offenders, and use of highly deviant pornography correlated with increased recidivism risk for all groups.[7] The majority of men who have been charged with or convicted of child pornography offenses show pedophilic profiles on phallometric testing.[8] A study with a sample of 201 adult male child pornography offenders using police databases examined charges or convictions after the index child pornography offense(s). 56% of the sample had a prior criminal record, 24% had prior contact sexual offenses, and 15% had prior child pornography offenses. One-third were concurrently charged with other crimes at the time they were charged for child pornography offenses. 17% of the sample offended again in some way during this time, and 4% committed a new contact sexual offense. Child pornography offenders with prior criminal records were significantly more likely to offend again in any way during the follow-up period. Child pornography offenders who had committed a prior or concurrent contact sexual offense were the most likely to offend again, either generally or sexually.[9]

According to the Mayo Clinic of the U.S.A., studies and case reports indicate that 30% to 80% of individuals who viewed child pornography and 76% of individuals who were arrested for Internet child pornography had molested a child, however they note that it is difficult to know how many people progress from computerized child pornography to physical acts against children and how many would have progressed to physical acts without the computer being involved.[10]

A study conducted by psychologists at the American Federal Bureau of Prisons has concluded that "many Internet child pornography offenders may be undetected child molesters", finding a slightly higher percentage of molesters among child pornography offenders than the Mayo Clinic study, though they also "cautioned that offenders who volunteer for treatment may differ in their behavior from those who do not seek treatment." The study was withdrawn by Bureau officials from a peer-reviewed journal which had accepted it for publication, due to concerns that the results might be misinterpreted. Some researchers argued that the findings "do not necessarily apply to the large and diverse group of adults who have at some point downloaded child pornography, and whose behavior is far too variable to be captured by a single survey".[11] Child protection advocates and psychologists like Fred Berlin, who heads the National Institute for the Study, Prevention and Treatment of Sexual Trauma, expressed disapproval over the failure to publish the report.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations ... xual_abuse
In answer to your other question, I believe school administrators can tell the difference between transgender people and someone who's just pretending. Presumably they are screened by school psychologists and counselors first.
Folks can just "tell"?!? "Presumably they are screened..."?!? That's your answer?!? Seriously?!? :shock:

Assuming for the sake of discussion schools actually do perform testing to ferret out the "real ones" (which sounds a little "stigmatizing" to me), allowing access wouldn't apply to just schools, Professor. What about at your local gym? Can the clerk sitting at the counter where people present their ID card "just tell" whether or not a person is really transgendered or just pretending? Do transgenders need to be "tested" when they sign up for a gym membership to determine whether or not they are "real Ts"?

What about at the beach in the public changing areas? Can park rangers "just tell"? What about the other beach goers ? Can they "just tell"? Or do Ts need to go to their local DMV for "screening" so their driver's license can be appropriately marked with a big rainbow flag indicating they are "real Ts" in case a park ranger confronts them?

And what happens if someone who can "just tell" takes it upon him/herself to throw out a "faker," but they are wrong and they throw out a real transgendered person. Can the transgendered person sue?

In all seriousness, professor, that was probably one of the most poorly thought-out responses I have ever seen from you. But it does highlight the problem.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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minsocal » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:10 pm wrote:"No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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Col. Jessep » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:27 am wrote: That's a visual record of criminal activity. Did I just break the law?
You misunderstood what I said. Assaulting a homeless man is a crime. There is no additional crime in filming it (*), other than, of course, it could make it easier to be caught if you film yourself doing it.

(*) Unless you intend to sell the video as a commercial product, which is the problem with the Bumfight series.

Making a film of a minor engaged in sexual activity is itself a crime (in addition to the crime of possible statutory rape). The film itself is contraband. Therefore, possessors and consumers and purchasers cannot have it.
http://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/ci ... ornography" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus, you can speculate all you want about the motivation for the law. In fact, I find it interesting, given your previous arguments about law and morality, that you are essentially making a moral argument as to why this material is illegal.

What the law SAYS is it is illegal to have, because it is illegal to exist. The making of it is an illegal act and rights were violated at the moment of generation. Period. End of report.
Folks can just "tell"?!? "Presumably they are screened..."?!? That's your answer?!? Seriously?!? :shock:
We were talking about school administrators and whether they grant transgender students access to locker rooms on campus. We were talking about it because that is the subject Cruz discussed. I know college administrators use a screening/review process for such decisions, because I actually happen to know some.

Not what lifeguards do when transgender people go to the beach or park rangers when someone comes to a national park. That is a different topic, and honestly not relevant to what Cruz said.
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Re: Who Is the Biggest Liar in the 2016 Election?

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justme01 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:19 am wrote:
So, you have finally come out and admitted it.

You support racism.

Why am not I surprised.

You support racism Glen, your words. You have no problem with people who think that the color of a person's skin or their religion or sexual identity is grounds to engage in discrimination and hate.



You support racism Glen. You support the hate and violence behind racism Glen.

I wish you would quit your lying. I no more support racism than you support communism. Yes there are some racist who support the GOP. Just as there are communist who support the DNC. If supporting the GOP makes me a supporter of racism then what does supporting the DNC make you? Based on your assessment and knowing that you are in no way a hypocrite and that you would never judge one thing by one set of standards then the exact same thing by a different set. I guess by your own words and logic that would make you a communist sympathizer.

So unless you want to come out and admit you are communist sympathizer, which I believe you are not, how about quit lying and calling me a racist?
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